Rega counterweight

[John R]

Here's a new Rega counterweight mod I'm develpoping. It's currently fitted to my personal RB 250 and LP12. Early indications are that it is far superior sonically to the OL counterwieight mod, it is also far easier to adjust, the method of clamping the weight to the stub is far superior in my opinion and together with the fact that the stub is made from the same material as the arm gives rise to the performance hike over the OL weight.

Production versions will be variable mass, have a satin finish to the actual weight and an anodised finish to the subb. Price yet to be determined but will depend on level of interest.

Cmments welcome.

John R

[j7]

ohhh sexy!!!!

[John R]

Great stuff J7 .. Just wait until the production version is ready tho !

John R

[John R]

Here's another view of the prototype counterweight and stub. Don't forget the production version will be of much better visual quality with a satin finish for the weight and anodised stub in black or silver.

John R

[j7]

heheheh you must have the same blurry camera i have also :)

[John R]

Please understand oh great one - there is reason for my bluryness - I was a little intoxicated when I took that shot.. Well it looked great through the viewfinder at the time anyhow!

Much better pics will be posted in the near future.

John R.

[j7]

yea more pics would be great

i like the idea here...easy to adjust...will be great for cartridge fiddlers

[The Professor]

yep and it looks good too, that will help sell it make no mistake

[John R]

Cheers Prof - It looks far better in the metal than the poor quality pics but the sonic improvement is awsome; the additonal bass and detail it enables the arm to drag out of a disk is utterly amazing.

I'm working on making it variable mass similar to SME's with interchangeable weights. The clamping method is very good too, but I've got to be able to arrive at a realistic price point before I can even begin to market the idea.

John R.

[Col]

yep I'm interested in this too for me j7 modded rega 250 and Thorens TD 160 the price how much:eek::):wink:

[John R]

Hi Col.

I need to produce a minmium of 20 sets in order to arrive at a marketable retail price. Perhaps I can gauge interest levels via here on the Network and my website? I know it's better than the OL version. My mate has a Tecnoarm on his Gyro but I reckon my Soled LP12 blows his deck away! But I would say that wouldn't I ?

John R.

[j7]

ther is about 400k rega arms out there...

so many and so few time to fit em all:)

[John R]

Hi J7.
If only I could muster the intrest, I could probably get the cost down to a competitive level. The larger the order (upfront investment) then the lower the retail will be - "supply and demand" I think the correct term is.

John R

[cat's squirrel]

Hi J7.
If only I could muster the intrest, I could probably get the cost down to a competitive level. The larger the order (upfront investment) then the lower the retail will be - "supply and demand" I think the correct term is.

John R

no, I believe the correct term is savings by mass production.:cheers:

I couldn't believe the improvement brought about by using a solid stub and RB300 counterweight on my RB250, nothing special about the parts. It changed a record player (special Lenco G99 build) into a source of 'real musicians'. Best £25 I ever spent on hifi.

Hope your efforts are even better.

[John R]

Thanks for that Bryan. I've sill got a way to go before pushing the GO GO GO button though.

John R.

[cat's squirrel]

Thanks for that Bryan. I've sill got a way to go before pushing the GO GO GO button though.

John R.

is the stub screwed into the arm body as most other stubs? if so, how do you ensure the correct orientation? ie, the flat must be horizontal.

[John R]

No, there is a threaded brass insert, itself with a central M4 thread which is screwed in first, my aluminium stub is attached to the arm by a HT Allen bolt so you align/level the counterweight and tighten the Allen bolt when all is level.. It's very similar to the OL means but I use brass instead of steel for the insert, because aluminium and steel can set up an electrolytic action which is detrimental to the wellbeing of aluminium.

John R.

[j7]

give us more pictures :)

[John R]

give us more pictures :)

Soon j7, soon..

John R.

[subcon]

Nice looks a lot like the SME in that top down pic

[John R]

I have to admit I've been a long time admirer of SME arms.. So yes I also admit to being heavilly influenced by their Series VI and V designs. However, my offering uses a solid block of austenitic (non magnetic) stainless steel for the counterweight. I believe the SME counterweight is of variable mass with interchangeable lead weights under that snazzy housing, though I stand to be corrected.

Better photographs will be along in the near future too.

John R.

[cat's squirrel]

No, there is a threaded brass insert, itself with a central M4 thread which is screwed in first, my aluminium stub is attached to the arm by a HT Allen bolt so you align/level the counterweight and tighten the Allen bolt when all is level.. It's very similar to the OL means but I use brass instead of steel for the insert, because aluminium and steel can set up an electrolytic action which is detrimental to the wellbeing of aluminium.

John R.

any two dissimilar 'soluable' metals will give this reaction, though there has to be an ion carrier, ie, water. The zinc in the brass will be worse that the aluminium! (that's why they use sacrificial lumps of zinc on the bottom of boats/ships). I suspect the brass is going to be better because it isn't as soft as ally, but why use HT bolts?

Anyway, I'm not being negative, looks a very good mod, and if priced just right, may well find many buyers. The obvious competitor is Michell, but why pay ~£70 when one of the counterweights will always be redundant? and there is something that loooks odd (engineering-wise) with a counterweight at right angles to the arm tube, IMHO. Your design neatly sidesteps this issue. :thumb:

[John R]

You are absolutely correct with regard to the ion carrier and I guess I should have said Allen or cap head bolt - just neat fasteners, not neccessarily HT. My prefference is for 18/8 stainless steel anyhow.

John R.

[cat's squirrel]

You are absolutely correct with regard to the ion carrier and I guess I should have said Allen or cap head bolt - just neat fasteners, not neccessarily HT. My prefference is for 18/8 stainless steel anyhow.

John R.

OK, that sounds fine. You probably know this, but s/s tends to cold weld (to itself). Plenty of grease, or silver/gold plating will stop it.

[John R]

And titanium even worse. Spin a titanium nut on a titanium bolt just fine, but try getting it off again... Oh cripes!

John R

[cat's squirrel]

And titanium even worse. Spin a titanium nut on a titanium bolt just fine, but try getting it off again... Oh cripes!

John R

does anodising stop this?

[John R]

does anodising stop this?

Hard (not decorative) anodising may help? I don't know for sure, though Chesterton nickel anti seize compound or C5A (copper based) works well.

I've not tried the commercially available "Coppaslip" but I guess it should help too. The Chesterton and C5A compounds should be available through Brammer BSL.

Incidentally the aluminium stub that will be part of my counterwieght kit will be hard anodised as it is very resistant to wear/scratching.

John R

[Roksoff]

John, in my opinion Coppa Slips messy.
We use it by the bucket load at work and it just gets everywhere but it does what it says on the tin at the end of the day.

[John R]

John, in my opinion Coppa Slips messy.
We use it by the bucket load at work and it just gets everywhere but it does what it says on the tin at the end of the day.

Yes Sir! Most of these anti-seize compounds are messy to apply, but they are excellent at minimising fretting or "picking up" of threads etc.

John R

[j7]

looking forward to some pics m8

[John R]

I know j7 - won't be too long now.. My digicam is not really good enough to show the quality of the upgrade in picturers. I'll have a friend of mine to take some shots when he gets back from his European business trip.

I propose to fit my new counterweight mod to two otherwise standard RB 300 arms and offer them to a couple trusted members to give me an honest assessment over a 6 week period before returning the arms to me. I will then be offering these uprgrade weight kits for sale. Well that's the plan anyhow..

John R.

[John R]

A few hastilly taken photos of the new Rega counterwieght mod. These two are due for trial on two RB 300's I have here. Anyone care to give em a try and give me honest critical feedback? These are only trial versions the commercials ones will be much nicer!

John R.

[j7]

they look great john

there is a few rega uses on this forum

i hope they take you up on this offer

[gregory]

I'd be happy to try one, what might be the price on the final production model, cheers, Gregory.

[eddie spaghetti]

Welcome to the forum Gregory :cheers:

[cat's squirrel]

A few hastilly taken photos of the new Rega counterwieght mod. These two are due for trial on two RB 300's I have here. Anyone care to give em a try and give me honest critical feedback? These are only trial versions the commercials ones will be much nicer!

John R.

I wouldn't discount the RB250 as an arm to attack, that may be your bigger market, from my own experience of a similar upgrade. :wink:

I would be very happy to give it a trial, but I'm off to the US shortly for a recital, and have to spend all my pre-trip time rehearsing.

[gregory]

Thanks for the welcome Eddie, what a great site this is, i can see me posting quite a bit here.

[John R]

I'd be happy to try one, what might be the price on the final production model, cheers, Gregory.


I wouldn't discount the RB250 as an arm to attack, that may be your bigger market, from my own experience of a similar upgrade. :wink:

I would be very happy to give it a trial, but I'm off to the US shortly for a recital, and have to spend all my pre-trip time rehearsing.


Thanks Gents.
I'll enter into some dialogue with you over the next few days by PM. I'm busy with the Soles project currently so I may be a little tardy in starting things off but please bear with me on this. I will contact you.

I'll be looking for some assurances ie that my products will be returned unharmed after a 60 - 90 day period (I maintain intelectual property rights for his upgrade) and I'll be looking for some insight into what you feel it does both sonically and aesthetically for your Rega derived arms.

Addtionally what you'd be prepared to pay for this upgrade should I move it into the comercial zone.. I have much work to do on his front before I can even suggest a retail price other than it must be competitive in a difficult market and reflect the peformance etc.


John R.

[j7]

will be very interesting to here how the guys get on

ohh and welcome onboard gregory!!

[Andy831]

Hi John

Please put me down as a Beta Tester for the Rega Counterweight. I currently use a Tecnoweight so it will make for an interesting comparison. I am sure I can drag Chopsaw along for a demo evening too so we can provide two pairs of critical ears for the new weight.

Regards

Andy

[John R]

Hi John

Please put me down as a Beta Tester for the Rega Counterweight. I currently use a Tecnoweight so it will make for an interesting comparison. I am sure I can drag Chopsaw along for a demo evening too so we can provide two pairs of critical ears for the new weight.

Regards

Andy

Hi Andy. Si mentioned you to me a while back, I'll certainly get one sent off to you for critical evaluation. How long would you want one for?

As I've mentioned to the others who've shown an interest I'll PM in the near future. These are pre commercial examples in order for me to garner potential customers viewpoints.

Your feedback will be evaluated and any potential tweaks will be incorporated into the commercial kits - if of course these counterweights prove to be any good, or indeed better than what's currently available. I feel they are fairly aesthetically pleasing at any rate, so that may be one hurdle cleared.

Be in touch soon..

John R.

[John R]

gregory, cat's squirell & Andy831.

PM's sent regarding Rega counterwieght trials.

Regards

John R.

[John R]

Apologies for crap photo's but they'll at least give a flavour for what the mod looks like on the RB300.

John R.

[Chops54]

I saw the pics yesterday John but I was in a rush. That looks like a bloody good idea to me. Look good polished up I reckon, better than the Techno.

[John R]

I saw the pics yesterday John but I was in a rush. That looks like a bloody good idea to me. Look good polished up I reckon, better than the Techno.


Cheers Si.
It's variable mass too, but on a small scale through differing materials for the clamp. I'm currently using it on my Soled LP12 fitted with an RB250 (Incognito wired) and Music Maker III cart; also tested it with Denon DL110 and Goldring G1042. Sounds? - Really wonderful.

Looking forward to hearing what you and Andy think of it (Plus a few other members too). There seems to be a lot of interest regarding it here on the forum. If you and Andy feel it's good then I'll offer them for sale. Personally, I've found it blows the OL mod into the weeds but I would say that - I'm biased !


John R.

[John R]

Just been playing with my new Lumix, hoping you guys can appreciate the better quality images. Let's give it a go !

This kit due to go out to Andy 831 later this week.


John R.

[The Professor]

looks tidy and ready to go Well done!!

[John R]

Cheers Paul
My God, that lens shows all the tiny little marks on my pre production versions. My ultimate aim - SME and J7 quality!

John R.

[rkay5]

John,
Really a good looking design looking forward to trying one.

[John R]

John,
Really a good looking design looking forward to trying one.

Hi Robert.

I'll be very interested in your thoughts; given that you too have a Michell Tecnoweight on your RB250. For me, the Tecnoweight is a very nice and successful design and I like John Michell's stuff too, but it just don't look quite right does it? Sound's great I know, but I reckon my counterweight/stubb design and clamping method has the edge!

My LP12 - Sole - RB 250, rewired and totally rebuilt and upgraded with my counterweight mod, it sounds just brilliant but I am a little biased you understand!

For me, a classic motorcyclist - I was brought up on the old adage "if it don't look right, it aint right." I feel this holds true for audio equipment too.

John R.

[gregory]

They look easy to fit as well, a bit self explanatory with all the parts laid out, i am looking forward to trying this out as i was about to venture into a new weight so if i like i buy and yes they do look rather tasty.

[John R]

They look easy to fit as well, a bit self explanatory with all the parts laid out, i am looking forward to trying this out as i was about to venture into a new weight so if i like i buy and yes they do look rather tasty.

Thanks m8 - PM sent .

John R.

[rkay5]

John,
I don't know why but just looking at I have a feeling it will sound better than the Michell Tecnoweight . I was a motocross racer.It just looks right

[Andy831]

Looking Good John and looking forward to it arriving now.

I will get it installed and run it for a week or so in the RB 250 then give Choppy a shout to come and have an afternoon with it vs the Tecnoweight.

I will then put it in the RB 600 and do a similar thing.

Anybody else in the North West / Yorkshire Area want to get a listen then just give me a shout by Pm.

[Chops54]

When did you get the 600 then?

I wouldn't mind a before and after listen if you're going to try it on the 600 ;)

[Andy831]

I picked it up last week, it was one of those impulse things, the choice was a better Rega, that simply drops into the same hole as the 250, (and to be honest I do really like the 250,) Or start having new slate armboards made to accomodate a 12" Jelco. The simplicity of the Rega upgrade won out.

The Rega was a very good price too so once I have set it up and had it playing I am planning on sending it to J7 for the treatment.

So once John sends the counterweight if you fancy a trip across the border we can have an afternoon and do a before and after on the 250 and a 600.

[Chops54]

So once John sends the counterweight if you fancy a trip across the border we can have an afternoon and do a before and after on the 250 and a 600.

:^

[John R]

So once John sends the counterweight if you fancy a trip across the border we can have an afternoon and do a before and after on the 250 and a 600.


Andy.
I plan on getting the counterweight kits to you and Gregory for Thursday/Friday, in plenty of time for the W/E whereupon you can have them for 60 days before I send them on to rkay5 and anyone else who would like a trial.

Are you both "au fait" with Rega am counterweight/ stub removal and fitting or shall I send instructions?


John R

[Andy831]

Andy.
I plan on getting the counterweight kits to you and Gregory for Thursday/Friday, in plenty of time for the W/E whereupon you can have them for 60 days before I send them on to rkay5 and anyone else who would like a trial.

Are you both "au fait" with Rega am counterweight/ stub removal and fitting or shall I send instructions?


John R


No instruction required for me John

Andy

[gregory]

Hello John, i wouldn't mind some instructions, can then post them on to the next user.

[John R]

Guys .


As promised the counterweight kits were mailed out his morning by special delivery so you will have them tomorrow.

I would very much appreciate you letting me know of your initial impressions and also, when you have had enough time, I would welcome a warts and all appraisal of any perceived performance enhancement together with your feelings on build quality, ease of fitting etc would be helpful.

John R.

[Chops54]

Guys .


As promised the counterweight kits were mailed out his morning by special delivery so you will have them tomorrow.

I would very much appreciate you letting me know of your initial impressions and also, when you have had enough time, I would welcome a warts and all appraisal of any perceived performance enhancement together with your feelings on build quality, ease of fitting etc would be helpful.

John R.

Don't worry John, you'll deffo get an indepth assessment from our corner.

[Andy831]

---- Looking forward to it John ----

[superfunk]

hello everybody!
i have a deluding Rb 250 on a technics 1200.
i'm looking for a good reason of don't sale the thing, and for a way to make it a good sounding tonearm.
i'm very interested about this counterweight.. and yes, i'd like to be one of the lucky testers.
p.s.: the tonearm has the original inner cables, but different external ones (diy microphone cable)

[wiicrackpot]

Hi Superfunk,

First of all welcome to the forum.

Deep down i know you wanna do the right thing,so may i suggest sending it to J7 to have it checked out,re-wired and the external cable then top it with John R's counterweight,what you'll end up with is a giant killer.:cheers:
HTH.

[John R]

Gregory.

Please make contact with me regarding the counterweight kit you have on trial.

John R

[j7]

and lets have some pics of the test weights on the testers arms :)

[Andy831]

Will do J7 just as soon as I put the AI weight back on, probably later this week.

[John R]

Any news (good or bad) on the AI counterweight trial Andy ?


Oh' BTW rkay5 will be next to trial on this forum.

John R.

[Andy831]

Hi John

I found the weight not as effective when mounted in the RB600 as it was mounted in the RB 250, maybe that it due to better bearings in the RB600, maybe J7 could comment there.

I have gone back to the Tecnoweight for a week and will have a last session with the AI weight next week sometime before returning it to you

Andy

[John R]

Thanks for that Andy. I wander if that is the case for the other manufacturers weights ie more impact in the RB250 than other RB variants?

John R.

[Andy831]

Possibly John, thats why I thought J7 might have a view regarding the bearings.

[zharca]

Hi, here's my take on the rega arm tube setup:

There are two very different types of RB arm, those with spring vtf (RB300 etc.) and those without (RB250).

The arm tube assemblies are very different which is why I think they react differently to changing counterweights.

On the RB300 type there is a 12mm bearing journal into which is tightly press-fitted a solid steel plug. This helps damp the arm tube and helps break up the path between the stub/counterweight assembly and the arm tube. Small bearings are press-fitted into the steel carrier and have a proper shaft linking them to the arm yoke with the inner races supported both sides. They work as a nice little unit.

On the RB250 it's been pared down to a price so there's nothing but a couple of flanged bearings press-fitted into a 13mm journal and a lot of air. All the adjustment is done by side-loading them with little tapered brass stubs and so there's very little to stop the armtube/counterweight assembly behaving as one resonant unit. The inner races are only supported by a point-contact on the outer edge. Not nice. This setup's much more sensitive to what's hung on the back of it.

[Andy831]

Excellent Reply Zharca, and certainly in keeping with my findings so far

[Andy831]

So given Zharca`s reply I wonder if the spring loaded vft is turned off, ie set to zero and the loading is achieved simply by varying the counterweight location, whether an advantage can be found in either weight?

[zharca]

Andy: the spring loading works in the reverse sense, it holds the arm up, not down. This is to make it work properly with warps.

So it's "off" when set to the maximum, not to zero.

having said that, I think that it's the best way to run these arms, adjusting vtf on the counterweight.

[Chops54]

When I went over to Andy's a week ago I had a listen to the Rega on his 401 first with the Techno, then with John's weight. I prefered John's weight. As I said to Andy, with John's weight, bass was better ie firmer and more open, the effect lessening as the music went up the scale.

I agree with Andy that the finish of the weight is right as it is John. It's also easy to fit and use.

[John R]

That's encouraging Si. I guessed the weight would have a different (lesser?) effect with the RB300-600 variant arms but it's good to hear you prefer it to the Tecnoweight in your listening session. Good feedback regarding finish too! Production versions will be better !

All I need now is pre orders so I can work on getting the price right.

Oh to get rep power like zharca eh' ?

John R

[zharca]

Oh to get rep power like zharca eh' ?

John R

it sorta appeared overnight..............
Can you do it yourself????

[Chops54]

That's encouraging Si. I guessed the weight would have a different (lesser?) effect with the RB300-600 variant arms but it's good to hear you prefer it to the Tecnoweight in your listening session. Good feedback regarding finish too! Production versions will be better !

All I need now is pre orders so I can work on getting the price right.

Oh to get rep power like zharca eh' ?

John R

Your rep power has just gone up :)

[John R]

it sorta appeared overnight..............
Can you do it yourself????

Wow! Understandable tho' given the quality of your work. Respect Sir!


John R.

[John R]

Your rep power has just gone up :)

My thanks Si very kind of you! But please only give it if you feel it's justified...

John R.

[Chops54]

My thanks Si very kind of you! But please only give it if you feel it's justified...

John R.

There's no way you'd get it from me if you hadn't earned it mate :D

[John R]

There's no way you'd get it from me if you hadn't earned it mate :D

Well thanks again Si!

I've not been on board the C-O-N for a while as I've been having a little paddle in the Linn Forums because I'm p--d off with comments made by some who should know better, anyhow I'll not be bothering with the self righteous on there for much longer!

John R.