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Thread: LP12 TLC

  1. #1
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    Default LP12 TLC

    It's him again, sorry

    Background:
    Right, so in 93/94 ish I got my LP12 deck, from the long defunct Image Hi-Fi in Headingley Leeds.
    Valhalla power supply, Basik Plus arm and K18Mk2 cart. My father was upgrading his to the then new Lingo 1 power supply & Akito arm. This meant I was able to buy a refurbished deck and have them install the arm, cart and power supply on it from his. I got the whole deck for about 400.
    I've never fiddled with it, just enjoyed playing it. In 2007 I moved house, the new place needed a lot of DIY so all my LP's were put out of harms way in the loft, the Wife decided that she liked the lack of clutter and they stayed away, a lot of my rarer ones ended up on eBay too Last year she seemed to come around to vinyl again after I played her one following a conversation about them.

    Whilst the sound was very enjoyable it didn't really have that quality as I had remembered. I wasn't sure whether they just weren't as good as I had remembered or it needed some attention.
    I found a new stylus for the K18Mk2, that made a very significant improvement, but the deck was looking a bit tired and didn't seem entirely happy.

    Where we are now:

    I've bought an Akito arm from eBay, it turned out to have sticky bearings (apparently this is common, I didn't know), the rather splendid J7 took it under his wing and sorted it for me.

    Opening the deck up it was apparent that old turn tables are a lot like old cars, bits of dodgy repairs, loose screws, muck and for what they cost, there's not a lot to them.

    Issues resolved:
    The 3 screws that connect the chassis to the arm board were loose.
    The 4 screws that bolt the tonearm pillar on were loose so the arm could rotate in its socket.
    the old Valhalla PSU is a crappy design as it's always live and gets hot meaning it was nicely cooked and full of dry joints. I cleaned it up and recapped it, then flogged it on eBay, replaced it with a Hercules 2 for the same money. Also I was always a fan of how the Lingo on my Dad's deck made his sound so much better by removing the magnetic interference away from the cartridge, given that those are a bit pricey I bought a Mose kit instead and installed that.
    One of the top screws that goes into the plinth was loose
    The original tonearm cable is fairly rancid, plus someone (presumably Image) had made a dodgy bodge on the earth cable! I've replaced the tonearm and earth cables.
    The 3 bolts that hold the tonearm on were loose
    The 2 main suspension screws that go through the cross-brace were a bit loose
    The platter wasn't sat entirely flat, adjusted the springs, it's now level.
    The tonearm was a bit high for the cart, adjusted.
    So far it's made quite a substantial improvement and I've yet to swap out the tonearm.
    The bearing seems OK, I've cleaned it out and added some fresh oil, it's a pre-Cirkus type.

    To do:
    Install refurbed Akito (need to get a protractor, might just print one out)
    there seems to be a slight warp on the platter, does that happen??! It's going to bother me now I've seen the 'wobble' so will want to replace it (presumably that means a Cirkus kit)
    Check speed (sounds right though).
    The switch I Hercules came with a dodgy power switch, it's electrically sound but has had a different cable fitted to make it longer, can I use one for a Lingo, I'm assuming they're wired the same?
    I didn't like the base, seems a bit crap, I have a decent Target stand for the hi-fi but tempted to swap that out.
    I don't know whether it would make sense to swap the cart given the deck was clearly out of whack, with the 'new' arm I'm wondering whether to leave it off until I can afford an Adikt.
    Cosmetically a new plinth and lid would be nice but they're low on the list.
    Buy more records.

    I wouldn't have put myself on the upgrade chasing list but that seems like quite a few pence now!

    anyway here are a few photos of it in bits and back together again, any pointers or things that I should be considering would be welcome.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6jxmhrcjs2..._2727.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9eu8nycok..._2728.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6jef6zqu1t..._2730.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/irgrz4t90i..._2731.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lqwbj8jbt..._2732.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2rzplrysg..._2733.JPG?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v3whp15kky..._2734.JPG?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/naqskrshru..._2738.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/56t8d8z42g..._2737.jpg?dl=0

  2. #2
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    Nice LP12 Qube.. Good year that, it should have the black Peek linered bearing - forerunner to the Cirkus.

    Don't use a Lingo cable I can't for sure say it's wired the same - you may blow a pcb component!


    Regards.

    John R.

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    Yeah I've been told they're different. Got one sourced though so all good!

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    This is the bearing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd2naaqex7..._2736.jpg?dl=0

    White lining so can't use black oil.

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    If the housing is chemical black and not gold plate colour, you can use black oil..

    You should not use Linn "black oil" with the gold colour bearing with white liners but later housings in chemical black are perfectly OK with it.

    John R.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John R View Post
    If the housing is chemical black and not gold plate colour, you can use black oil..

    You should not use Linn "black oil" with the gold colour bearing with white liners but later housings in chemical black are perfectly OK with it.

    John R.
    Surely oil is oil, at least when it comes to a relatively unstressed bearing, sounds like a Linn Myth to me.

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    Hi Paul.

    You can be forgiven for thinking that, but Linn black oil is very good for its intended purpose and strangely for Linn, it's not very expensive. Apparently, the pressure on such a small contact point is approaching 300,000 psi and whilst rotational speed is low, that's an enormous pressure.


    Tribology; the study of oil/lubrication is a fascinating subject. Does anyone know what type of oil continues to prevent seizure even when the lubricating film has broken down, but is not good when in contact with air? It's made from a bean - yes that's correct a bean that is used to make highly poisonous ricin!

    John R.

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    My platter has always been dull, forever seeing pictures of shiny edged platters, after 20-odd years it simply won't do.

    I attacked mine with a brillo pad today, all the muck came off and low and behold a shiny platter was underneath.

    It still sits high though, oddness.

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    Better sitting a little high rather than a little low

    John R

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    I suppose, but it looks less elegant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John R View Post
    Hi Paul.

    You can be forgiven for thinking that, but Linn black oil is very good for its intended purpose and strangely for Linn, it's not very expensive. Apparently, the pressure on such a small contact point is approaching 300,000 psi and whilst rotational speed is low, that's an enormous pressure.


    Tribology; the study of oil/lubrication is a fascinating subject. Does anyone know what type of oil continues to prevent seizure even when the lubricating film has broken down, but is not good when in contact with air? It's made from a bean - yes that's correct a bean that is used to make highly poisonous ricin!

    John R.
    John you misunderstand, I'm well aware of the pressures reported, although I'm not sure it's as high as you suggested, no it's more the point of you MUST NOT USE OIL X, in the context of a TT bearing, given it's simple construction, then 10w/30 would be fine, and i doubt even the most bat eared audiophile would be able to hear the difference, fair enough if you want to use Linn black, but don't think for a minute that Linn developed this oil, they bought a drum of it, and sell it in little bottles, Michell did the same, they bought some Mobil one and sell it in little bottles, at a huge markup, at least in Michell's case they said what oil it was, and the buyer could decide to buy some from Halfords in large quantity, or 20mm from Michell in a handy size for their TT.

    It's this internet insistence with Linn products that things must be done in a certain way, a throwback to the 80's when you LP12's went out of tune etc, and only a dealer could fix it, when a colleague wanted to put an Ittock on his Axis all internet advice said, it won't work, you need at least an LP 12, the axis was never designed for it, etc etc, do you know what, on looking to drill a hole for the Ittock arm pillar I discovered a partially drilled hole already of the correct diameter in the right spot, all i needed was to drill through a few mm of MDF, install arm, and it sounded fabulous, with none of the mid bass hump form a similar fettled LP12, you either believe the myths or you don't, me I don't

    P.S. This is not a dig at you John, just this nonsense in general.
    Last edited by The Professor; 6th April 2015 at 16:34.

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    ^ Like!

    Today I took my electric car polisher and some T-Cut and buffed my lid, it's amazing how cloudy they can get after 20-odd years.

    Looks like new now!


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    'buffed my lid', dirty bugger!

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    Can go blind if you spend too long buffing.

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    Right we're getting there now. Stripped it all down to nothing again and swapped out the sub-chassis (found a nice Cirkus one with armboard on eBay for 30, came in a Keel box, nice!). Noticed the that the old one was buckled too so I think that was the cause of the problems.
    Fitted the new springs and grommets (to be fair the old ones looked OK when I'd gotten them off), refitted my old bearing (the housing of that looked really old all the silver was flaking off), the platter sits a little lower with the new SC which looks better. Fitted longer screws onto the armboard as the existing ones didn't really tighten up, nice n solid now.
    Replaced the dodgy Hercules switch with a new one and have installed my J7 refurbished Akito 1 too.
    I just need to set the alignment up on the cart and I should be good to test it, need to check the speed too.

    The motor, runs OK (although it needs a push to get going with the Herc' PSU) looks a thousand years old, as does the bearing housing, everything else though does seem happy now, if I do the 'bounce test' it's a lot quieter, sounds more solid, and I'm not happy with that hardboard base; itsounds like a drum!

    But all in all I think I'm looking forward to playing some records.

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    take off the cardboard base, it's a waste of time anyway, it's only to stop you putting your hands onto the power supply. you say it's a new Herc PS, something though sounds amiss if you need to start platter by hand, is it a new Herc, or a New to you Herc?

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    The Herc gives less torque than the Val so expected. It does start if you leave it but seems to struggle a bit. It was better when the Herc was in the deck but then it was always plugged in (TBH I never liked the design where it was always 'on' chewing electricity), but now the Mose gets switched on, then the deck so it's a cold start.

    Some pictures of it all here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/06oj6kdyh...GFja_occa?dl=0

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
    John you misunderstand, I'm well aware of the pressures reported, although I'm not sure it's as high as you suggested, no it's more the point of you MUST NOT USE OIL X, in the context of a TT bearing, given it's simple construction, then 10w/30 would be fine, and i doubt even the most bat eared audiophile would be able to hear the difference, fair enough if you want to use Linn black, but don't think for a minute that Linn developed this oil, they bought a drum of it, and sell it in little bottles, Michell did the same, they bought some Mobil one and sell it in little bottles, at a huge markup, at least in Michell's case they said what oil it was, and the buyer could decide to buy some from Halfords in large quantity, or 20mm from Michell in a handy size for their TT.

    It's this internet insistence with Linn products that things must be done in a certain way, a throwback to the 80's when you LP12's went out of tune etc, and only a dealer could fix it, when a colleague wanted to put an Ittock on his Axis all internet advice said, it won't work, you need at least an LP 12, the axis was never designed for it, etc etc, do you know what, on looking to drill a hole for the Ittock arm pillar I discovered a partially drilled hole already of the correct diameter in the right spot, all i needed was to drill through a few mm of MDF, install arm, and it sounded fabulous, with none of the mid bass hump form a similar fettled LP12, you either believe the myths or you don't, me I don't

    P.S. This is not a dig at you John, just this nonsense in general.
    I know you're not having a dig at me Paul - wouldn't think about that for one minute. But their Black oil isn't very expensive - I heard it was Castrol GTX and Molyslip originally, don't know what it is now mind.


    They do tend to peddle much BS though! Probably why Soles are going great guns

    Regards.

    John R

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    Regarding the oil I read that from a bearing point of view it doesn't matter too much, but if you have the pre-Cirkus model with the white liner then the black oil doesn't get on with it so use the gold stuff.

    With all this nonsense fiddling I've been doing with this deck I tried both kinds as it had gold stuff in, I cleaned it out to do the work but only had a bottle of black, used that when putting it back together and you could hear the platter spin, I drained it, cleaned it out and used the gold stuff again and it was silent. So whilst I'd agree that Linn didn't develop the oil I'm forced to conclude that there is a different type to use depending upon the bearing you're running.

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    Hi all, it's been a while since I posted anything, but I thought I would stop lurking and say something.
    the Axis the prof refered to I know soooooo..... so well. I seem to remember trading it in.
    as for the mose kit, willie d20 was of great assistance when I fitted mine to the sondek, even provided the odd p clip and a few other sundries. My advice is stick with the Mose, it may lack torque for start up but once running provides excellent speed stability.
    Anthony.

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