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Thread: Turntable Mythology -

  1. #21

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    From your original post "not good enough" can be down to simple things like bearing quality(arm and turntable),if you put a revealing cart in an arm with poor bearings then you will lose most of the extra info that cart is able to get off the record,same with using an excellent arm/cart combo on a tt with a sloppy fitting or noisy bearing(or noisy un isolated motor),there is a load of bullshit in hifi but mechanical integration of all parts of a turntable is fundamental to things sounding "good"("good" is subjective so I don't mean accurate,some folk may not like accurate,even though the term hi fidelity implies it!)

  2. #22

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    just looked in on the linn fan site(sorry meant the linn forum)seems that not only do the members there think that only linn know anything about designing anything to do with playback via vinyl but also the members know more about cartridge design than AT,lots are slagging off the latest AT-ART1000,and pointing out design flaws,I doubt any will ever hear or own one but seems because it "isn't linn" it's obviously a very flawed design:-only thing I would criticise is its price!:-4100,but that does include vat!

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    Weren't most of the Linn carts made by AT?

    Thing is Linn didn't even design the LP12, and wasn't the Ittok made by (and perhaps designed by) Jelco?

  4. #24

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    All the Linn MC cartidges up to and including the Troika were made by Supex,think the K9,thei MM was an AT design.The ittok was made by Denon Instruments for Linn(think that was the name of the company, it isn't the hi-fi company or any relationship to it)the LP12 was supposedly designed by William James 'Hamish' Robertson and Jack Tiefenbrun,and maybe Ivor, it was originally marketed as the Ariston rd11,later to change it's name to the lp12,most of the parts were made by castle engineering which was sir Ivor dads company,when it changed to being the LP12,well quite a while after,they put an announcement in the hi-fi news and record review stating the tt originally known as the Ariston RD11 was now being sold as the Linn LP12 and this was an original product,maybe it should have stated tat it was just a development of the AR and Thorens td150!
    I think maybe the bearing was the part Jack designed as after the fall out later RD11's had captive ball main bearings and not the single point one used on original RD11's and subsequent LP12's,but who really knows(maybe the Tiefenbruns do but they aren't saying!)who actually did design it
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 16:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    All the Linn MC cartidges up to and including the Troika were made by Supex,think the K9,thei MM was an AT design.The ittok was made by Denon Instruments for Linn(think that was the name of the company, it isn't the hi-fi company or any relationship to it)the LP12 was supposedly designed by William James 'Hamish' Robertson and Jack Tiefenbrun,and maybe Ivor, it was originally marketed as the Ariston rd11,later to change it's name to the lp12,most of the parts were made by castle engineering which was sir Ivor dads company,when it changed to being the LP12,well quite a while after,they put an announcement in the hi-fi news and record review stating the tt originally known as the Ariston RD11 was now being sold as the Linn LP12 and this was an original product,maybe it should have stated tat it was just a development of the AR and Thorens td150!
    I think maybe the bearing was the part Jack designed as after the fall out later RD11's had captive ball main bearings and not the single point one used on original RD11's and subsequent LP12's,but who really knows(maybe the Tiefenbruns do but they aren't saying!)who actually did design it
    Oh I know the story, I'm very good friends with the family that bought Ariston, and had Hamish as a consultant in their subsequent business. Some of your story is accurate, but let's say IMHO it has a little spin on it, not your fault, things get distorted over time, history is written by the victors after all. But a great point by the way, incidentally Jack argued in court that he invented the bearing, I infer from that that he didn't design any other part, or perhaps he couldn't patent it, anyway he tried to patent the bearing 'after the fact' his patent was refused on the grounds that he had allowed another manufacturer to use it for two years prior. There is still no recorded proof of who designed what, although I've seen some interesting documents, but all the main original players are gone now, so I guess we'll never know.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
    Oh I know the story, I'm very good friends with the family that bought Ariston, and had Hamish as a consultant in their subsequent business. Some of your story is accurate, but let's say IMHO it has a little spin on it, not your fault, things get distorted over time, history is written by the victors after all. But a great point by the way, incidentally Jack argued in court that he invented the bearing, I infer from that that he didn't design any other part, or perhaps he couldn't patent it, anyway he tried to patent the bearing 'after the fact' his patent was refused on the grounds that he had allowed another manufacturer to use it for two years prior. There is still no recorded proof of who designed what, although I've seen some interesting documents, but all the main original players are gone now, so I guess we'll never know.
    Is that the Dunlop company?(Dunlop Westayr Ltd)I thought the patent was eventually granted on the bearing after the court case which Linn won?,that is what Ivor told me?,that is before he accused me of being an hi-fi cynic because I wouldn't believe most of their spin!Castle have done ok from being a textile engineering company don't you think making bits for sewing machines! lol
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 16:59.

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    I only know that at the time the patent was pending, but that means bugger all, it's a warning shot, I've always believed that Jack wasn't granted exclusive use as it had been marketed (legitimately and with JT's knowledge) by Ariston wether it was actually granted or not. Some say the reason the Linn was successful was that Hamish had an issue with getting parts in a timely fashion, Linn say he didn't take up his order leaving them having to sell the bits themselves, then there is other stories about Ivor loving music and wanting the best, so he designed the TT, I'll leave others to form their own opinions. FWIW the TT was a copy of the TD150, itself a copy of the Ed Vulchur original.

  8. #28

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    Re the td150 and Ed Vulchur,that is what I implied in one of my previous posts(number 24)wasn't the thorens actually made with them paying AR for the privilege to use the suspended chassis idea which AR had patented?
    Find it odd that the rubber bushes,springs etc from a LP12 fit a TD150 so exactly,just used a set of lp12's on my daughters TD150 to replace sagging original ones on it, coincidence? (I think not somehow!!)
    re bearing patent,oil baths and single point bearings are used in lots of applications so I could never figure how linn could hope to patent it anyway?maybe it was unique it tt design at the time?
    this is pretty interesting,especially on his reaction to what a turntables sounds like!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOlA...ature=youtu.be
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 17:40.

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    This thread could go on forever -
    You will hear loads of bollox e.g. there are some that say they cannot live with an AC motor (does make me giggle). Provided the motor turns the turntable and a constant correct speed then I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an AC or DC motor.

    I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an old Oak, an Amstrad tp12D, a cheap Project, a Sansui SR222 and virtually any Rega (if fitted with same or similar arm). If you get one of these turntables make sure you have a solid wall support cos it will pick up every tap and vibration of anything it is sited on.

    It is amusing to see Garrard 401s selling for a grand or more - you couldn't give them away in the 70s (Comet used to sell them and SME3009 for about 30 each in the early 70s). It is lovely to look at but soundwise is not a lot better than a Rega but will improve depending on what you mount it on.

    No one will agree on this overall - and it is good they won't cos if they did there would only be a single choice but anyone with the dosh there is only a single choice the Systemdek Reference as for the arm to put on it well that is another story
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post

    It is amusing to see Garrard 401s selling for a grand or more - you couldn't give them away in the 70s (Comet used to sell them and SME3009 for about 30 each in the early 70s). It is lovely to look at but soundwise is not a lot better than a Rega but will improve depending on what you mount it on.
    They have been recognised as good decks - robust, reliable and good to work on. I love my idler drive. All tt systems have their flaws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TIU View Post
    They have been recognised as good decks - robust, reliable and good to work on. I love my idler drive. All tt systems have their flaws.
    I didn't say they weren't but if you were blindfolded and had to compare to say a Thorens TD160 odds are you would prefer the Thorens but with the Garrard you can tweak and fiddle with different plinths etc. and it looks beautiful. It is the immeasurable qualities like eye candy etc. but if you want to play back records with the best possible replay then your head would tell you (and your ears) that a grand could be much more wisely spent on achieving best possible sound for pound ...
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Nube View Post
    Why are peeps still asserting digital is better than analog. This is to assert that a part equals more than the whole from which it is derived.

    Like the (new age) notion that an effect can precede its cause, it is a logical impossibility. Argument resolved, case closed. :-D
    In my view you are far better evaluating an amp or speakers or both using vinyl .. my wife who has no hifi ideas whatsoever prefers the reproduction of vinyl and complains that listening to Cds gives her a headache .. (that has been with every cd player I have owned from Marantz 72 to Meridian 506 20bit although she says the Pioneer 802 I had was sort of ok). I always ask her opinion as she has no axe to grind or silly influences she just uses her ears (she has long since realised looks have bugger all influence on how it is going to sound) and she did choose my Art Impressions. Anyway to cut a long story short - Vinyl reproduction gives you width and depth in spades whereas I have yet to find a CD player that does depth (front to back) as well as vinyl.
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

  13. #33
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    I had that
    My Krell Kps 25 sc Creato Audio upgraded had a wonderful depth and widenes in a test with my Lp 12s that i had before, but when i built my new TA black it not had a chans
    Now it has left the building since a while so now its only vinyl, but i still miss it.

    /L
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax, Tranquility
    https://www.linnarts.se

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post
    This thread could go on forever -
    You will hear loads of bollox e.g. there are some that say they cannot live with an AC motor (does make me giggle). Provided the motor turns the turntable and a constant correct speed then I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an AC or DC motor.

    I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an old Oak, an Amstrad tp12D, a cheap Project, a Sansui SR222 and virtually any Rega (if fitted with same or similar arm). If you get one of these turntables make sure you have a solid wall support cos it will pick up every tap and vibration of anything it is sited on.

    It is amusing to see Garrard 401s selling for a grand or more - you couldn't give them away in the 70s (Comet used to sell them and SME3009 for about 30 each in the early 70s). It is lovely to look at but soundwise is not a lot better than a Rega but will improve depending on what you mount it on.

    No one will agree on this overall - and it is good they won't cos if they did there would only be a single choice but anyone with the dosh there is only a single choice the Systemdek Reference as for the arm to put on it well that is another story
    do you work or are an agent for systemdek,you seem to push it at every chance
    re the 401 we took in loads of em in part ex for all sorts of belt and DD tt's,even against the Hydraulic Reference,which I mistakenly bought at one stage,after all tt's don't effect the sound do they as long as they are quiet and go round at the correct/stable speed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    do you work or are an agent for systemdek,you seem to push it at every chance
    re the 401 we took in loads of em in part ex for all sorts of belt and DD tt's,even against the Hydraulic Reference,which I mistakenly bought at one stage,after all tt's don't effect the sound do they as long as they are quiet and go round at the correct/stable speed?
    I used to sell the stuff from 1975 to 1980 .. I was going to buy a Linn but was blown away by the original heavyweight Systemdek. Sound for pound they were unbeatable (even the budget level IIx is superlative). The Pink made them rethink I guess as they changed the suspension and the platter makeup on the IIx and the IV. In my opinion I do not agree with you as TTs do have different characters and affect the sound. The way they work depends on the turntable platter and arm not having any vibrations which would affect the cantilever on the cartridge and the sound ..

    If you want to know how much vibration it has to contend with you can download a seismic app on your phone and place your phone on the platter and see how much vibration is felt (which has to affect the cartridge performance).

    BUT it is great we do not all have the same opinions - vive le difference .. perhaps am just easily pleased having only owned four turntables in 45 years .. and one of those is still in the loft and the other is being used by a cousin ..
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post
    If you want to know how much vibration it has to contend with you can download a seismic app on your phone and place your phone on the platter and see how much vibration is felt (which has to affect the cartridge performance).
    If I did that it would make me worry. Is there a difference in cables app?

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post
    I used to sell the stuff from 1975 to 1980 .. I was going to buy a Linn but was blown away by the original heavyweight Systemdek. Sound for pound they were unbeatable (even the budget level IIx is superlative). The Pink made them rethink I guess as they changed the suspension and the platter makeup on the IIx and the IV. In my opinion I do not agree with you as TTs do have different characters and affect the sound. The way they work depends on the turntable platter and arm not having any vibrations which would affect the cantilever on the cartridge and the sound ..

    If you want to know how much vibration it has to contend with you can download a seismic app on your phone and place your phone on the platter and see how much vibration is felt (which has to affect the cartridge performance).

    BUT it is great we do not all have the same opinions - vive le difference .. perhaps am just easily pleased having only owned four turntables in 45 years .. and one of those is still in the loft and the other is being used by a cousin ..
    I was being sarcastic(or maybe ironic)in saying turntables don't have any effect on the sound and only need to rotate quietly at the correct speed,if you think back to the very early 70's and before,that was the belief,love him or hate himsir ivor did make folk think of turntables in a different light,and like you I think it all is down to isolating the bits that matter immune as possible from any form of relative vibrations that can have an effect on the signal from the cartridge,be that from the motor,low or high level feedback,traffic and footfall vibrations ,in fact anything that isn't cut into the vinyl,plus obviously good engineering standards re bearing quality etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    I was being sarcastic(or maybe ironic)in saying turntables don't have any effect on the sound and only need to rotate quietly at the correct speed,if you think back to the very early 70's and before,that was the belief,love him or hate himsir ivor did make folk think of turntables in a different light,and like you I think it all is down to isolating the bits that matter immune as possible from any form of relative vibrations that can have an effect on the signal from the cartridge,be that from the motor,low or high level feedback,traffic and footfall vibrations ,in fact anything that isn't cut into the vinyl,plus obviously good engineering standards re bearing quality etc
    I tend to ignore sarcasm .. and this follow up makes perfect sense. Yes Ivor made the world think differently but I am convinced he was influenced by Hamish who designed the original (well took the TD150 and made it properly) because he was into how it sounded. ... BUT yes it was him who made the HiFi press actually think about how a turntable influenced the sound but you have to wonder if it was Hamish that made Sir I aware....
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post
    I tend to ignore sarcasm .. and this follow up makes perfect sense. Yes Ivor made the world think differently but I am convinced he was influenced by Hamish who designed the original (well took the TD150 and made it properly) because he was into how it sounded. ... BUT yes it was him who made the HiFi press actually think about how a turntable influenced the sound but you have to wonder if it was Hamish that made Sir I aware....
    according to ivor it was Hamish,his dad and him who all combined to copy(sorry design) the lp12(in those days called the ariston rd11),based on data learned from the 150,which was itself a copy of the original AR,in fact thorens paid AR to use the floating sub chassis idea,I do wonder how much input ivor would have had in the design as he never was an engineer,possibly he was the brains behind how to market it,if you remember the "night and day" review of the lp12 by dave berriman(or maybe chris frankland) in the early 70's you'll know what I mean

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    according to ivor it was Hamish,his dad and him who all combined to copy(sorry design) the lp12(in those days called the ariston rd11),based on data learned from the 150,which was itself a copy of the original AR,in fact thorens paid AR to use the floating sub chassis idea,I do wonder how much input ivor would have had in the design as he never was an engineer,possibly he was the brains behind how to market it,if you remember the "night and day" review of the lp12 by dave berriman(or maybe chris frankland) in the early 70's you'll know what I mean
    Chris Frankland the "f it wasn't a Linn or a Naim it is rubbish Frankland .. La la land ..." I have to thank him for not buying HiFi magazines when you sold the stuff and realised most if not all he said was a load of bollox ... As for the TT I am led to believe that Hamish certainly designed it .. he got Castle Engineering to make the bits to his spec and he showed the Ariston RD11 at Harrogate a year before the Linn came out. Still that is all history and most of it lost in the mists of time .. As for Mr Berriman he is my favourite reviewer - always objective and to the point and even better a lovely gentleman too. I bought some replacement B139 bass units for him when refurbishing a pair of Pro 9TLs and finally got to meet him a couple of years ago at Whittlebury .. if he says it is good it invariably is ..
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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