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Thread: Turntable Mythology -

  1. #21

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    From your original post "not good enough" can be down to simple things like bearing quality(arm and turntable),if you put a revealing cart in an arm with poor bearings then you will lose most of the extra info that cart is able to get off the record,same with using an excellent arm/cart combo on a tt with a sloppy fitting or noisy bearing(or noisy un isolated motor),there is a load of bullshit in hifi but mechanical integration of all parts of a turntable is fundamental to things sounding "good"("good" is subjective so I don't mean accurate,some folk may not like accurate,even though the term hi fidelity implies it!)

  2. #22

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    just looked in on the linn fan site(sorry meant the linn forum)seems that not only do the members there think that only linn know anything about designing anything to do with playback via vinyl but also the members know more about cartridge design than AT,lots are slagging off the latest AT-ART1000,and pointing out design flaws,I doubt any will ever hear or own one but seems because it "isn't linn" it's obviously a very flawed design:-only thing I would criticise is its price!:-4100,but that does include vat!

  3. #23
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    Weren't most of the Linn carts made by AT?

    Thing is Linn didn't even design the LP12, and wasn't the Ittok made by (and perhaps designed by) Jelco?

  4. #24

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    All the Linn MC cartidges up to and including the Troika were made by Supex,think the K9,thei MM was an AT design.The ittok was made by Denon Instruments for Linn(think that was the name of the company, it isn't the hi-fi company or any relationship to it)the LP12 was supposedly designed by William James 'Hamish' Robertson and Jack Tiefenbrun,and maybe Ivor, it was originally marketed as the Ariston rd11,later to change it's name to the lp12,most of the parts were made by castle engineering which was sir Ivor dads company,when it changed to being the LP12,well quite a while after,they put an announcement in the hi-fi news and record review stating the tt originally known as the Ariston RD11 was now being sold as the Linn LP12 and this was an original product,maybe it should have stated tat it was just a development of the AR and Thorens td150!
    I think maybe the bearing was the part Jack designed as after the fall out later RD11's had captive ball main bearings and not the single point one used on original RD11's and subsequent LP12's,but who really knows(maybe the Tiefenbruns do but they aren't saying!)who actually did design it
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 16:01.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    All the Linn MC cartidges up to and including the Troika were made by Supex,think the K9,thei MM was an AT design.The ittok was made by Denon Instruments for Linn(think that was the name of the company, it isn't the hi-fi company or any relationship to it)the LP12 was supposedly designed by William James 'Hamish' Robertson and Jack Tiefenbrun,and maybe Ivor, it was originally marketed as the Ariston rd11,later to change it's name to the lp12,most of the parts were made by castle engineering which was sir Ivor dads company,when it changed to being the LP12,well quite a while after,they put an announcement in the hi-fi news and record review stating the tt originally known as the Ariston RD11 was now being sold as the Linn LP12 and this was an original product,maybe it should have stated tat it was just a development of the AR and Thorens td150!
    I think maybe the bearing was the part Jack designed as after the fall out later RD11's had captive ball main bearings and not the single point one used on original RD11's and subsequent LP12's,but who really knows(maybe the Tiefenbruns do but they aren't saying!)who actually did design it
    Oh I know the story, I'm very good friends with the family that bought Ariston, and had Hamish as a consultant in their subsequent business. Some of your story is accurate, but let's say IMHO it has a little spin on it, not your fault, things get distorted over time, history is written by the victors after all. But a great point by the way, incidentally Jack argued in court that he invented the bearing, I infer from that that he didn't design any other part, or perhaps he couldn't patent it, anyway he tried to patent the bearing 'after the fact' his patent was refused on the grounds that he had allowed another manufacturer to use it for two years prior. There is still no recorded proof of who designed what, although I've seen some interesting documents, but all the main original players are gone now, so I guess we'll never know.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
    Oh I know the story, I'm very good friends with the family that bought Ariston, and had Hamish as a consultant in their subsequent business. Some of your story is accurate, but let's say IMHO it has a little spin on it, not your fault, things get distorted over time, history is written by the victors after all. But a great point by the way, incidentally Jack argued in court that he invented the bearing, I infer from that that he didn't design any other part, or perhaps he couldn't patent it, anyway he tried to patent the bearing 'after the fact' his patent was refused on the grounds that he had allowed another manufacturer to use it for two years prior. There is still no recorded proof of who designed what, although I've seen some interesting documents, but all the main original players are gone now, so I guess we'll never know.
    Is that the Dunlop company?(Dunlop Westayr Ltd)I thought the patent was eventually granted on the bearing after the court case which Linn won?,that is what Ivor told me?,that is before he accused me of being an hi-fi cynic because I wouldn't believe most of their spin!Castle have done ok from being a textile engineering company don't you think making bits for sewing machines! lol
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 16:59.

  7. #27
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    I only know that at the time the patent was pending, but that means bugger all, it's a warning shot, I've always believed that Jack wasn't granted exclusive use as it had been marketed (legitimately and with JT's knowledge) by Ariston wether it was actually granted or not. Some say the reason the Linn was successful was that Hamish had an issue with getting parts in a timely fashion, Linn say he didn't take up his order leaving them having to sell the bits themselves, then there is other stories about Ivor loving music and wanting the best, so he designed the TT, I'll leave others to form their own opinions. FWIW the TT was a copy of the TD150, itself a copy of the Ed Vulchur original.

  8. #28

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    Re the td150 and Ed Vulchur,that is what I implied in one of my previous posts(number 24)wasn't the thorens actually made with them paying AR for the privilege to use the suspended chassis idea which AR had patented?
    Find it odd that the rubber bushes,springs etc from a LP12 fit a TD150 so exactly,just used a set of lp12's on my daughters TD150 to replace sagging original ones on it, coincidence? (I think not somehow!!)
    re bearing patent,oil baths and single point bearings are used in lots of applications so I could never figure how linn could hope to patent it anyway?maybe it was unique it tt design at the time?
    this is pretty interesting,especially on his reaction to what a turntables sounds like!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOlA...ature=youtu.be
    Last edited by steve195527; 15th May 2016 at 17:40.

  9. #29
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    This thread could go on forever -
    You will hear loads of bollox e.g. there are some that say they cannot live with an AC motor (does make me giggle). Provided the motor turns the turntable and a constant correct speed then I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an AC or DC motor.

    I doubt anyone could tell the difference between an old Oak, an Amstrad tp12D, a cheap Project, a Sansui SR222 and virtually any Rega (if fitted with same or similar arm). If you get one of these turntables make sure you have a solid wall support cos it will pick up every tap and vibration of anything it is sited on.

    It is amusing to see Garrard 401s selling for a grand or more - you couldn't give them away in the 70s (Comet used to sell them and SME3009 for about 30 each in the early 70s). It is lovely to look at but soundwise is not a lot better than a Rega but will improve depending on what you mount it on.

    No one will agree on this overall - and it is good they won't cos if they did there would only be a single choice but anyone with the dosh there is only a single choice the Systemdek Reference as for the arm to put on it well that is another story
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzzy View Post

    It is amusing to see Garrard 401s selling for a grand or more - you couldn't give them away in the 70s (Comet used to sell them and SME3009 for about 30 each in the early 70s). It is lovely to look at but soundwise is not a lot better than a Rega but will improve depending on what you mount it on.
    They have been recognised as good decks - robust, reliable and good to work on. I love my idler drive. All tt systems have their flaws.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIU View Post
    They have been recognised as good decks - robust, reliable and good to work on. I love my idler drive. All tt systems have their flaws.
    I didn't say they weren't but if you were blindfolded and had to compare to say a Thorens TD160 odds are you would prefer the Thorens but with the Garrard you can tweak and fiddle with different plinths etc. and it looks beautiful. It is the immeasurable qualities like eye candy etc. but if you want to play back records with the best possible replay then your head would tell you (and your ears) that a grand could be much more wisely spent on achieving best possible sound for pound ...
    A good earwash may be the cheapest and best upgrade to your system.

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