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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
    I take issue with this post Daniel, is it to provoke an angry response. As a lawyer I'm sure you know that that statement is as idiotic as the people it describes.

    I'm sure a minority felt and voted like that, it's the same everywhere, there will always be a minority of subhumans who feel like that, in fact it's worse in places like Germany and Spain, yes the media has picked up on some disgusting reports of racism following the vote, but as in all things they exaggerate and it suits their agenda, and it sells 'news' Why have we not heard the stories of those reassuring immigrant friends and colleagues, that we love having them here, and no the vote doesn't mean they have to go home, and we'll fight to make sure thats the case, mmm that doesn't sell papers or suit agendas.

    Listen 17m voted out, I was as shocked as the rest of you, but they can't all be the dirty smelly unwashed and uneducated. How many of the 16m who voted remain did so because 'well I'm alright Jack'? I watched one of the numerous debates prior to the election, although I had already made up my mind, I watched them anyway, on one question time we had most of those asking questions were only interested in how it affected THEM. Now to my mind those voters are just as abhorrent as those voting because of racist ideals, horrible selfish slime, I voted based on the future or how I saw it, not how it would affect me today, if more had looked at the bigger picture....rather than what they thought or what they were fed...the vote might have gone the other way, but some of the info I have read since all this happened makes me thing that if people had been fully informed, then the vote have have gone the same way....only by a larger majority!!!

    Now some of those who voted on the immigration issue (Tony Blair's fault) did so not because of race, but more the economic migrants, those looking to see what they can take, not what they can offer, we have enough homegrown parasites who don't want to work without importing more. Those people voted the way they did because the REMAIN camp failed them, Immigration was an issue used by Leave, why didn't Remain tell people the truth?

    The whole thing is a stinking mess, but it has happened, what we need to do now is stop blaming each other (divide and conquer, Tories played a blinder on that one) and start working together. In all honesty I don't see it happening, true at the moment Osbourne and co are saying it will (but they never lie do they?) and the Eropeans are saying hurry up and get on with it, and only today the message has softened a bit by announcements that the rest won't hurry us, over the next few months lets see what happens, my guess is some kind of agreement will be reached that allows both parties to back down without losing face, they need us as much as we need them, perhaps more so.

    The majority was 1.2 million , I am willing to bet that there were at least 1.2 million northern people , who are good at heart but rascist in that they blame muslims, ,poles and immigrants for the deterioration in their lifestyle and sense of alienation they feel in their home towns . rascists are not sub human they are people with real problems looking for a reason . They are however poorly educated .

    I am from Oldham , my father was a clever man who- unlike me - never got the chance to leave his environment behind thanks to his father , he was however a racist . Oldham as a large Bangladesh community and my father ignorantly blamed "pakis" for all the problems in Oldham and the fact he lost his job .

    He is typical of the type of northern person who voted leave , my statement was provocative but true .

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie spaghetti View Post
    The "United states of Europe" was slowly creeping upon us and it didn't look to me as if many people wanted it. .
    what does this actually mean ? it is nonsense . We are a modern interconnected world it is right that some policies are global and some are local . it is good that air travel , transport , employment rights. policing , consumer protection , vehicle safety and others are the same throughout Europe , it would be better if they were the same throughout the world . One of the reasons Amazon can pay no tax is because of tax policies outside Europe . It is absurd that we fly things half way round the world that cost less than 5 to buy , but whilst china , india have slave wages conditions it makes economic sense to do so .

    united states of Europe is a typical farage comment , it is meaningless . for a start states in America have far more autonomy that the members of the Europe Union .

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    The majority was 1.2 million , I am willing to bet that there were at least 1.2 million northern people , who are good at heart but rascist in that they blame muslims, ,poles and immigrants for the deterioration in their lifestyle and sense of alienation they feel in their home towns . rascists are not sub human they are people with real problems looking for a reason . They are however poorly educated .

    I am from Oldham , my father was a clever man who- unlike me - never got the chance to leave his environment behind thanks to his father , he was however a racist . Oldham as a large Bangladesh community and my father ignorantly blamed "pakis" for all the problems in Oldham and the fact he lost his job .

    He is typical of the type of northern person who voted leave , my statement was provocative but true .

    willing to be is different to what you said earlier. But i take your point, who knows, suppose the ones we should be most disappointed are aren't the voters, it's those who had the vote and chose not to use it. OK they may feel that it's pointless, so go vote and spoil your paper if you want to protest.

    The main thing at the moment though is the country is divided, and thats just how the Tory elite like it, divide and conquer!! now is the time to stop being angry and lets look at how we can move forward together. EU membership right be comfortable, it might suit some people, but it's not ideal, and there are other options, we need to explore these rather than infighting and moaning about things that cannot be undone.

    As I said earlier my guess is some common ground will be reached where by we can stay in and they can let us stay in without anyone losing face.

  4. #24

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    The country is always divided on what actual issues can 63 million peoples interest align ?

    the problem with the brexit vote is perversity of it . in that the vast majority of people who voted out will have life circumstances that will deteriorate as a consequence of exiting , it is analogous to treating an un-displaced mallous fracture of the distal non dominant left fibula by amputating it .

    Gramsci remarked that the working class were analogous to a steam engine with no driver and it remains much the same today .

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    Brexit will reap rewards wait and see..

    The EU (and unfortunately Europe) as a result of the EU's anti democratic and dream land ideals is in failure mode. Next month Greece will need yet another unsustainable bail out.. I really pity the southern European countries who have seen their homelands ruined. I have friends in Italy and they are livid at the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    The country is always divided on what actual issues can 63 million peoples interest align ?

    <snip>.
    I think you know what I meant, but in case it wasn't clear, we might all have different ideals and aims in life, and others may have the opposite view, but normally we co-exist, however at the moment one side is blaming the other, and not showing the nicest of human traits, and not the government for allowing this to happen.

    But let me get back the the human traits, for all those reports we hear about the disgusting racial predjudice rearing its ugly head, yet somehow it's fine to pigeon hole a whole cross section of voters as thick, racist, decrepit etc the snobbery of middle class England rears it's ugly head, it's disgusting and elitist and yet I hear no one decrying that, the press after the defeat of England in a football match against Iceland, Humiliating Defeat they cried, fans said 'disgusting what a waste of money supporting this lot' why is it this type of Englander feels such a sense of elitist entitlement, as if you EXPECT to win or as the press normally put it CONQUER!! because you are English and therefore superior. Do they know how insulting those post match headlines were to Icelanders?

    Why is this not being rooted out in the same way as the racist comments, it's a fine line between racism and eliteism, in fact it's just semantics.
    Last edited by The Professor; 30th June 2016 at 11:13.

  7. #27

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    Bailouts are a consequence of capitalism not European integration.

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    And therein lays a big problem with the EU Dan. The EU ruling classes are anti democratic, they feed off capitsalism and they certainly do not care that millions are jobless homeless andstarve around the world let alone in parts of Western Europe. I hope the entire disgusting edifice collapses just as it deserves to.

    Of course, it'll hurt many of us but we can live in hope that something better comes of it eventually.

  9. #29

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    The Eu is not anti-democratic ,it is run by elected mp's - one of them farage took over 3 million is salaries and expenses .

    they make decisions based on what best for the whole of Europe , Europe and capitalism are not the same . Neither is leaving Europe a solution for the problems of Britain , we now have an unfettered tory government of fuckwits whose only desire to the personal finances of themselves and their friends .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    The Eu is not anti-democratic ,it is run by elected mp's - one of them farage took over 3 million is salaries and expenses .
    Sadly you are mistaken, The EU Parliament does not function as a democratic parliament it is impotent. The show is run by commissioners and presidents, I wonder can you name them? Harriet Harman couldn't name one! Most ordinary folk I have spoken to do not have a bloody clue either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    they make decisions based on what best for the whole of Europe
    Doing a pretty useless fffi'ng job of it aren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    we now have an unfettered tory government of fuckwits whose only desire to the personal finances of themselves and their friends .
    May be so for some, remember you can't please all the people all the time, but we can vote them in or out every five years.. Trouble is our country does not have an effective opposition. "New Labour" Blairite's are pseudo Tories masquerading as looking after he hard working man - what bollocks. Labour haven't been supporting the working man for decades!

  11. #31

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    Sadly you talk rhetorical rubbish . All decisions made by the European parliament are fettered through the prism of individual democracies. that is why we did not join the single currency .

    you talk about new labour is also wide of the mark , Blair and brown idea was to grow a capitalist economy and then through tax redistribution to assist those less well off , for a party that had not been in power for decades and was not trusted on the economy it was a good strategy . Their problem was taking their eye of and trusting the financial markets on account of the tax revenues that came in .

    the lives of the bottom 30% of GB were far better under labour than they are now, as always it the worst off who suffer under tory governments .Your anger at the state were are in is totally misplaced as a result of a lack of understanding .
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 1st July 2016 at 17:09.

  12. #32
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    Well there you go.. If only all of the electorate were as clued up as you are in UK and EU politics our country could be far better off.

    So on face value, seeing as you know so much about it why don't your change your career path and stand for your chosen party perhaps you may help make the world a better place? But you won't in all reality because there are far bigger forces at play here than any of us plebs can begin to imagine. Trusting the finacial markets eh? Now there's a foolish dream which went badly the wrong way for two of the worst PM's in history thus far , although Camoron isn't far behind them with that accolade.

    Sorry to disappoint, but I have my own beliefs (mistaken or otherwise) to which I am entitled and I will use my vote as I wish, long may that freedom continue.
    Last edited by John R; 2nd July 2016 at 23:31.

  13. #33

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    This is a curious riposte . I did not say you were not entitled your beliefs , you are offering your beliefs on a public forum , don't be surprised if people challenge them. You should not take it personally .

    I am happy when people challenge my opinions . I aim to make my beliefs and opinions to the best they possibly can and to be founded upon a correct ontological and epistemological foundation of what is and the order of things . It is only through challenge that you can ever have a semblance of the validity of one's views which cannot be validated through scientific method .

    Some views do not matter as they have little or no consequence in time or space , it matters not if Genesis are vastly superior to Rush , some views are of medium importance as they do have consequences in time and space and effect peoples lives , is the sole better than the keel ? and some views are pivotal as they have massive consequences in time and space and effect everyone's lives { leaving the EU} . Always best to keep this in mind when challenging people .

    To my egotistical persona, the fact that very few -if any - can challenge my views validates them Perhaps you are correct I should turn to politics

    Finally , you are of course correct , if there we 63 million DQ'S in GB the country would be a far better place , but the cost of genesis vinyl would be a complete ball ache .
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 4th July 2016 at 10:58.

  14. #34
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    For the record, I didn't vote in this referendum. Farage, Gove & Boris vs Gideon and The Pigfucker? C'mon...

    I genuinely think a lot of the Brexit votes were a form of protest vote from people. Some of the voxpops
    on the BBC were really depressing, especially the old guy in Barnsley(?) going "it was all about immigration
    for me. Now the muslims can go back to where they came from..."
    Oh dear.

    I don't think the EU works, but then I don't think the UK works either. I do think some Brexiters are in for a
    shock though, and for this point I cite the way the Brexit frontline big guns have, to use some Glaswegian
    patois, shat the bed and ran for the hills.



    James H

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    I watched Panaroma last night. It was a documentary asking the people who voted to leave, their motives and whether they were happy with the result.

    The magnitude of their desperation was palpable. They came from parts of the country who have pretty much been abandoned. They have nothing; governments of all colours over the last 40 years have done nothing for them; they see absolutely no hope of improvements to their lot. They are old people who feel that their communities bare no resemblance to they way they were. They were young people who cannot find work and who cannot get to see a doctor, cannot get a home or access to the school of their choice for their children. "We are full up." They "are inundated with immigrants" who they do not dislike but do resent the way that they refuse to integrate into their way of life/society/communities. "Community is all we have left. Without community, we have nothing."

    Rightly or wrongly they felt they had absolutely nothing - and I mean nothing - to lose. I felt sympathy for them. Abandoned by the "self serving, money grabbing, selfish" ruling political classes, they had nothing left except the power of their vote.

    Don't blame them for the way the referendum panned out. Blame our politicians and those in Brussels who actually "appear" worse/even more arrogant - if this is possible - than our own.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  16. #36

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    It is not a blame game .

    BUT -

    Blaming the EU for the problems of the poor , the forgotten and the ignored is ridiculous . It is turkeys voting for xmas.

    Blaming immigrants is also misconceived , it is analogous to a rich fat bastard going in to a cake shop and eating 95% of the cakes and when the people outside moan there is not sufficient left for them , he blames the immigrant in the corner who is eating a few crumbs he dropped whilst scoffing his fat smug face and the shoppers turn on him .

    And I don't blame them for being stupid ,it is a combination of factors, largely beyond their control , but that does not mean they are not stupid and ill-informed.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Blaming the EU for the problems of the poor , the forgotten and the ignored is ridiculous.
    Not if you are one of the unfortunates whom felt they had no other option.

    It is not turkeys voting for Christmas. It is the underdog 'trying' to change the game so that they have a chance of winning.

    "
    And I don't blame them for being stupid...." Words fail me.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  18. #38

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    Sorry , but that is complete rhetorical rubbish "trying to change the game so they have a chance of winning" wtf does that mean !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    every single one of the unemployed and working poor will be worse off a result of EU exit . They will lose rights , benefits and safety nets that were determined in Europe from mandatory holiday pay and working hours to health and safety. They will also loose the future benefits the EU will be bring in .

    And why do words fail you? If I ask someone why they voted to leave the EU and they said cause my doctors is full of polish people and I expect it to get better once we leave , that is ipso facto a stupid answer and thus they are stupid . I would say much the same if they said "'trying' to change the game so that they have a chance of winning."
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 6th July 2016 at 15:53.

  19. #39
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    Well I tell you what, I'd give the stupid a chance because the smarmy, arrogant, cocksure, arseholes in charge haven't half made a complete and utter mess of pretty much everything recently.
    Last edited by ESK; 6th July 2016 at 17:04.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  20. #40

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    I think you will find that those in charge have made life a hell of a lot Better for themselves at the expense of the rest of us. thanks to the stupidity of the .masses. depends which side of the fence you at on if that is making a mess.

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