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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESK View Post
    Well I tell you what, I'd give the stupid a chance because the smarmy, arrogant, cocksure, arseholes in charge haven't half made a complete and utter mess of pretty much everything recently.
    Cracking post!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Sorry , but that is complete rhetorical rubbish "trying to change the game so they have a chance of winning" wtf does that mean !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    every single one of the unemployed and working poor will be worse off a result of EU exit . They will lose rights , benefits and safety nets that were determined in Europe from mandatory holiday pay and working hours to health and safety. They will also loose the future benefits the EU will be bring in .

    And why do words fail you? If I ask someone why they voted to leave the EU and they said cause my doctors is full of polish people and I expect it to get better once we leave , that is ipso facto a stupid answer and thus they are stupid . I would say much the same if they said "'trying' to change the game so that they have a chance of winning."
    Losing benefits? That's a rather grim assumption, but it suits your argument I suppose, what makes you think they will do away with any legislation already in place.

    The EU only really suits big business, that's why there are around 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels and not one of them works for a government!!

    What we need now is someone with the balls to tell EU how we will be dealing with them. The VAT situation as it stands works fine, there's no reason why that can't be left in place, at the moment our weak leadership is letting EU dictate terms, FFS they need us more than we need them, threaten them with slapping huge tariffs on their goods and watch the German car dealers get involved, we need to dictate the terms on a 'take it or leave it' basis, we can buy our goods elsewhere, can they magically find another lucrative market with 20-30 million consumers and their families?

    As for stupidity, that's elitist IMHO, uninformed, uneducated in that particular point, maybe, but it doesn't make them stupid, no one knows how it's going to pan out, if we stick together we will come out the other side, you should stop listening to the scaremongering propaganda that is the UK media.

    Perhaps you should join Stelios when he moves easy jet, you could join him in Greece perhaps, all but bankrupt, or perhaps Italy or Spain, about to be announced bankrupt, so fine if you are France or Germany or London, but as far as the rest are concerned it's fucked, it started as a common market and became a political dictat, but it's fine for the 'I'm alright Jack's' of this world to ridicule and pour scorne because things didn't go the way they planned.

    Time's are a changing, you can keep moaning about the past, or you can join together and plan for the future, I know which route I'm taking, and what makes me even more optimistic is my Managing Director couldn't be happier, now as an engineer and a clever one who, eg there are no machines on the market to manufacture the products we make, so he creates one, is he STUPID too then? (Before you answer that he's that stupid he runs a world wide oem manufacturing business with turnover around 50m and employs around 250 folk)

  3. #43
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    Just as an aside and an example of how the EU legislation may not be the panacea some paint it to be.

    Britain used to lead the world in medical research and trials, we did more trials per capita than any other country, in fact we did around 8% of the worldwide,total annually, since EU brought in new legislation trials are becoming more difficult to implement, so now we are down to only 1% and EU is down against the RoW, now the trials still go on, because 'Big Pharma' are Global organisations, only because of the magical EU legislators the money is now spent elsewhere, have you a smart arsed answer for that Daniel or is one of us being stupid?

  4. #44
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    Apparently, everyone except him is stupid.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  5. #45
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    ^^^^. . . .
    You can only be young once, but you can be immature for ever.....

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Sadly you talk rhetorical rubbish . All decisions made by the European parliament are fettered through the prism of individual democracies. that is why we did not join the single currency .

    you talk about new labour is also wide of the mark , Blair and brown idea was to grow a capitalist economy and then through tax redistribution to assist those less well off , for a party that had not been in power for decades and was not trusted on the economy it was a good strategy . Their problem was taking their eye of and trusting the financial markets on account of the tax revenues that came in .

    the lives of the bottom 30% of GB were far better under labour than they are now, as always it the worst off who suffer under tory governments .Your anger at the state were are in is totally misplaced as a result of a lack of understanding .
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    This is a curious riposte . I did not say you were not entitled your beliefs , you are offering your beliefs on a public forum , don't be surprised if people challenge them. You should not take it personally .

    I am happy when people challenge my opinions . I aim to make my beliefs and opinions to the best they possibly can and to be founded upon a correct ontological and epistemological foundation of what is and the order of things . It is only through challenge that you can ever have a semblance of the validity of one's views which cannot be validated through scientific method .

    Some views do not matter as they have little or no consequence in time or space , it matters not if Genesis are vastly superior to Rush , some views are of medium importance as they do have consequences in time and space and effect peoples lives , is the sole better than the keel ? and some views are pivotal as they have massive consequences in time and space and effect everyone's lives { leaving the EU} . Always best to keep this in mind when challenging people .

    To my egotistical persona, the fact that very few -if any - can challenge my views validates them Perhaps you are correct I should turn to politics

    Finally , you are of course correct , if there we 63 million DQ'S in GB the country would be a far better place , but the cost of genesis vinyl would be a complete ball ache .
    Sadly I found these two posts by DQ mildly condescending - I mean it's just not cricket is it?

  7. #47

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    Once again , what we have is people putting words in my mouth . I did not say the EU was all good , I did not say it was a panacea . What I said was that the lives of majority of working poor and unemployed who voted to leave will be degraded as a consequence .

    "Losing benefits? That's a rather grim assumption, but it suits your argument I suppose, what makes you think they will do away with any legislation already in place."

    Because that is why the wanted out . Since when did the Tories help the workers . Human rights acts and a plethora of so called burden on business will be scrapped . We will also miss out on the EU continuing evolution towards better and better treatment of workers .

    "The EU only really suits big business, that's why there are around 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels and not one of them works for a government!!"


    I am a Marxist and even I think this is rubbish . I have given you a dozen examples of why it as made things better for workers and the populace in general , that is not to say it doesn't help big business or all that it does is correct . However , there are 508 million people in the EU , a third must be educated , a third must work and third must be paid for cause they are old , pandering to big business will of course be in furtherance of this goal .

    As for your managing director , well his interests are not aligned with the EU or the general populace .

    I am amused that you consider your MD and big business to be separate entities . I am also amused that I am castigated for saying some people are stupid and yet I am a smart arse

    You appear to be defending your own decision to leave not my point that the majority of people who voted out didn't have a clue as to the consequences and those consequences will be detrimental to their everyday lives .

    And if that post from ESK is cracking , I will eat my PT at scalfold . taking forum friendship two far that is professor

    Finally , your post on pharma research is rhetoric. Precisely what is the causal mechanism that as seen research fall and how is this attributable the EU . I have a german neuroscientist friend who teaches in a UK uni and all his department are gutted because they will now miss out on EU grants and they are very unlikely to be replaced by increased spending in the UK .



    And John r if you found my posts patronising I would respectfully suggest your posts got the retort they required .
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 7th July 2016 at 09:55.

  8. #48

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    "^^^^. . . ."




    Top notch contribution , I would stick to re-aligning your 12 inch arm and paraphrasing serge without accreditation
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 7th July 2016 at 10:03.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESK View Post
    Apparently, everyone except him is stupid.
    Is this a direct quote from me or your supposition ?

    If it is your supposition , then nothing you have written would seem to negate it
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 7th July 2016 at 09:56.

  10. #50
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    Thank you for your kind words.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    And John r if you found my posts patronising I would respectfully suggest your posts got the retort they required .


    Que sera sera.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    I am a Marxist
    From your blindingly obvious contempt for the uneducated lower classes I'd say that was fairly obvious.
    20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please God, don't take Kevin Bacon

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Once again , what we have is people putting words in my mouth . I did not say the EU was all good , I did not say it was a panacea . What I said was that the lives of majority of working poor and unemployed who voted to leave will be degraded as a consequence .
    You didn't say it, you implied it by pointing out the good it does that you think will not be carried on, and you also made assumptions about the future and how it will affect people, which may or may not come to fruition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    "Losing benefits? That's a rather grim assumption, but it suits your argument I suppose, what makes you think they will do away with any legislation already in place."

    Because that is why the wanted out . Since when did the Tories help the workers . Human rights acts and a plethora of so called burden on business will be scrapped . We will also miss out on the EU continuing evolution towards better and better treatment of workers .
    now who is making assumptions? People who think they already know what is going to happen are the problem, Britain's electorate are discovering they have power, what's to stop us from making sure these things benefits are kept in the loop? what's to stop us aligning with the good benefits that may come in the future? people are powerful when we stand together, in the past we have been fragmented as a nation, but now people from all walks of life are realising that together we are powerful and don't have to put up with being fed shit

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    "The EU only really suits big business, that's why there are around 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels and not one of them works for a government!!"


    I am a Marxist and even I think this is rubbish . I have given you a dozen examples of why it as made things better for workers and the populace in general , that is not to say it doesn't help big business or all that it does is correct . However , there are 508 million people in the EU , a third must be educated , a third must work and third must be paid for cause they are old , pandering to big business will of course be in furtherance of this goal .
    see my above point, your assumptions are we will go back to the 1900's, women will lose the vote, workers rights will be eroded, yes that may be what some in the leadership and their business 'pals' would like, but who says as a nation we will allow this to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    As for your managing director , well his interests are not aligned with the EU or the general populace .
    my managing director interests are aligned with what's good for his business and it's employees, EU is only a part of the business, yet it dictates how the business behaves, even if that can be counterproductive to a SME, there is a whole world out there beyond the EU with 4 times the number of consumers, and EU will still buy from us, but now we can negotiate trade deals with other nations instead of currently whereby the EU negotiates the trade deals and we have to comply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    I am amused that you consider your MD and big business to be separate entities
    My company is an SME not a 'big business' some of the un-necessary red tape is a higher proportion of costs to an SME than it is to a large multinational who can fudge the figures and cook the books to move it's money to nations where it can minimise taxation, small national businesses cannot, now the EU and world rules allow this to happen (those lobbyists again) meaning it's un-competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    I am also amused that I am castigated for saying some people are stupid and yet I am a smart arse
    I never said you were a smart arse, I asked if you had a smart arsed comment, but if the cap fits....

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    You appear to be defending your own decision to leave not my point that the majority of people who voted out didn't have a clue as to the consequences and those consequences will be detrimental to their everyday lives .
    you are making assumptions again, i never said which way I voted. What i said was don't look to the past, the vote is what it is, no point crying about the result, now we have to build for the future, together, to prevent the doom and gloom you are assuming WILL happen, your idea of the future is only one possibility, it's not set in stone. I'm happy that my MD sees it that too, as an opportunity, and not doomongers like you and Stelios Easy Jet Everybodymateypeeps reaps the benefits of the UK while it suits him, yet first into the lifeboat when things don't go his own way. Perhaps we should impose a tariff on EJ flights into the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    And if that post from ESK is cracking , I will eat my PT at scalfold . taking forum friendship two far that is professor :roll eyes:
    Stop playing the Straw Man, that comment nothing to do with forum friendship I just happened to think he made a great point succinctly and without resorting to antagonism Had ESK been posting the kind of things you are I would have disagreed with him just as you, no need to consider friendships, no one need fall out, we are all adults and theres no reason why we can't have a debate and keep it civil, thats what you want isn't it? Or should we just agree with what is only your opinion and given it's the future and has yet to be written, only one of a whole raft of potential scenarios. Instead of worrying what might happen, why not point out what the negatives might be and ensure we tackle them in a way that prevents them or negates their effect, instead of worryingly biting your finger nails behind the sofa waiting for it to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Finally , your post on pharma research is rhetoric. Precisely what is the causal mechanism that as seen research fall and how is this attributable the EU . I have a german neuroscientist friend who teaches in a UK uni and all his department are gutted because they will now miss out on EU grants and they are very unlikely to be replaced by increased spending in the UK
    Big Pharma's lobbyists behind this one I'm afraid, but until they harmonise prices and therapies across the EU (some drugs Rx'ed on the continent are banned in the UK, and countries like France have pricing controls in place to ensure the French health service get the prices they want, this leads to parallel imports in other countries like the UK, which are still re-imbursed at UK prices, now these products come with differing patient info, and different packaging, and the only one's benefiting are the French, the French drug companies and the Importers, until they harmonise the whole thing then doing it with trials only is nonsense) Now by tightening up trial procedures in the EU will allow Big Pharma to take these trials to other countries, where it's cheaper and has less red tape than EU, so Big Pharma increase profits (PS the ABPI referred to in my link is an organisation run by Big Pharma for the pretence of living within the rules, to placate the clinicians and infer that they are working with them, in reality it benefits Big Pharma but penalises the smaller SME and R&D type businesses which are then swallowed up by Big Pharma for their own ends) and small business and innovation is lost to this country and others within the EU.

    http://www.pharmafile.com/news/19812...ial-regulation

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESK View Post
    From your blindingly obvious contempt for the uneducated lower classes I'd say that was fairly obvious.
    If I showed contempt for anyone and that is debatable , then it is for stupid people , are they uneducated lower classes necessarily ?

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    Looks like Labour got beat here.
    I have a Rock and I'm not afraid to use it.

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    Prof - Your argument against the adverse effects of Brexit effecting those who voted for it is “ you don’t know what will happen”

    Clearly I am not clairvoyant , but this is a silly argument . It was the aim of brexiters to repeal European legislation . Since the tories have come to power they have implemented a number of laws that throws the burden of austerity on the poor and made their material conditions worse . It is far more probable their historical actions will carry on the future , if you are simply going to say “you do not know” then that is just absurd .

    I note with amusement that one the witches now running for tory leader is running on repealing the human righjts act , unburdening business , removal of discrimination laws and waging a war on political correctness .

    There is not a raft of potential scenarios , it is fairly predictable what Tories will do

    Your other point is an argument with Stelios not me .


    Finally , even if I accept the scenario you paint re pharma , I cannot appreciate from what you have said why the existence of the EU is to blame . You seem to be saying that the EU as bottled it to serve the interests of a few countries , that is not an argument against the EU that is an argument for stronger more effective EU . How on earth can the EU harmonise prices if England exit ?

    Lobbying is a problem in all democracies , it is not an argument against the eu .
    Last edited by Daniel Quinn; 8th July 2016 at 14:11.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Quinn View Post
    Prof - Your argument against the adverse effects of Brexit effecting those who voted for it is “ you don’t know what will happen”

    Clearly I am not clairvoyant , but this is a silly argument . It was the aim of brexiters to repeal European legislation . Since the tories have come to power they have implemented a number of laws that throws the burden of austerity on the poor and made their material conditions worse . It is far more probable their historical actions will carry on the future , if you are simply going to say “you do not know” then that is just absurd .

    I note with amusement that one the witches now running for tory leader is running on repealing the human righjts act , unburdening business , removal of discrimination laws and waging a war on political correctness .

    There is not a raft of potential scenarios , it is fairly predictable what Tories will do

    Your other point is an argument with Stelios not me .


    Finally , even if I accept the scenario you paint re pharma , I cannot appreciate from what you have said why the existence of the EU is to blame . You seem to be saying that the EU as bottled it to serve the interests of a few countries , that is not an argument against the EU that is an argument for stronger more effective EU . How on earth can the EU harmonise prices if England exit ?

    Lobbying is a problem in all democracies , it is not an argument against the eu .
    I didn't say we don't know what is going to happen, I said It hasn't happened yet, because it's the future, sure we can look at history, but instead of repeating it we can as a nation prevent the governments from implementing these changes you fell are inevitable, sure if we sit back as a nation like we have done in the past, but I feel people have had enough and they will fight tooth and nail to ensure the future governments work for US, or they will be voted out, we have seen what happened to the Blues and Reds in the general election in Scotland, the parties will want to ensure it doesn't happen again, we have to show them where the power really lies.

    As for the current Tory leadership election, look what has happened recently when a non elected official was prime minister after his boss stepped down, (Brown/Blair) what's to stop the electorate demanding another general election?

    The Stelios thing was me trying to inject a bit of humour.

    As for the pharma thing, the Eu allowed themselves to be lobbied without looking at the main consequences, they also didn't see it as a big deal because most of the other EU countries did and do very few trials per head, the UK was worse affected by this, when met with such rules Big Pharma will just move it to places where it's cheaper. My main problem with the EU is they are now making decisions with political and sovereignty ramifications when it it was supposed to be was a trade agreement.

    So while I accept lobbying is a problem for all democracies the EU has allowed the Lobbyists to do their job for them, instead of trying to lobby all interested parties individually. Thats the problem with centralised control, it only suits some of the people, take inheritance tax, they increased the threshold again on the pretext that property in London and the HC meant a lot of normal folk where breaching the threshold just on the value of their home, fine if you live there but matters not a jot to many in the north where house prices are more realistic.

    The main crux of my argument though Daniel is instead of assuming things will be worse, put that energy into ensuring that they aren't, I know a few who voted to leave, not because it would be better or worse, but as it's clearly not working, (or to placate you working as well as it should be), they see this as a chance to implement change in the way this country is governed, do you want to get on board with them, or do you want to sit on the sidelines muttering about how the Tories are going to shaft us and then sitting back and letting them do it?

    Some one will start a petition soon asking for a vote of no confidence, in the government or the shadow cabinet, if someone starts one of those it will break the internet i bet, my guess is 40m signatures I'd love them to ignore that.

  18. #58
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    This is a heavy thread man.

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