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Thread: Sub - chassis isolation bobbins

  1. #21
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    PM me your address and I'll discuss with you.

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    Hi John
    The kit is coming in on my bench i think friday this week , looking forward to test them and see and hear what they do to my TA Stealth.
    As you and others know i have been tested and built in a sevral of the Mushrooms types that is usually made to fit the TD 124 and 125 since back in -14 , that i have tested Thorens Std mushrooms, Schopper mushrooms and of course they from Audio Silente in silicon that i find the best funktion and of course the ultimate sound.
    I have also tested it with some different subs like Std Linn , TA and Cetech and find it best funktion with The Plateau from Tangerine Audio.
    The problem that a std spring Lp 12 has its the sideways against the motor and ofcourse depends on the belt condition also and the std is as you know 5 mm screws for the springs all the way but for the pinnbolts in the Stiletto is 6 mm agaist the topplate and it fits the Audio Silente mushroom perfekt that is has a dia of 6,1 mm and its like a rock sideways and you have a little bounce up and down as is good.
    Looking forward to see and hear what yours Bobbins could do to sink this mushrooms. Maybe itīs going to be

    /L
    NO ONE : Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), DV DRT XV 1S, Chord Sign Tuned Aray, Cirkus, Radikal Klimax, Tranquility.
    NO LINN : Woodsong, PEEK, SSP 12, AI bobbin https://www.linnarts.se

  3. #23
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    Hello Lennart.

    Welcome to my lounge, I'm hoping you find some of the musings interesting..?

    Many folk frequenting the lounge are customers of mine but some non customers are curious/interested and knowledgeable forum members who have supported me in various ways since I began the Ai venture 8 years or so ago. I am exceedingly grateful to all of them.

    The "In Sole" bobbins tend to polarise opinion which I guess is to be expected, some love them but some less so. You have a love of the unorthodox, as do I, so this will be an interesting trial for sure.


    Regards.

    John.

  4. #24
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    I'm let you all know my feels about the In Sole bobbins .The In Soles are great they make set up so much easier for starters as for sound quality,lower noise floor I hear more detail in the mid-range bass is tighter and platter speed stays were it should witch improves music pitch and detail.
    A great up grade over springs. Gave them a go I bet you like.
    Robert
    SE LP12/Sole SubChassisVIII/SSP12/Hercules-Mober DC&PSU/Roksan NimaUnipivot+sKale/ZYX R50 Bloom3 L/Whest PS30R /CambridgeAudio Azur 851A/MerlinTSM/Mytek St192DACTascamDA-3000

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    What are these 'bobbins'? They just the rubber grommets that the spring sits in or something that also replaces the springs?
    Pictures?

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    Hi John,
    have you an idea of what the resonance frequency is, fully loaded? With springs, it's easy to assess the resonance frequency, and estimate the 'filter frequency' from it. Or do they not bounce!
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  7. #27
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    Hello Bryan.

    They don't bounce!

    I have been working on the effect of acoustic resonance on a TT and thereby trying to arrive at an isolation system that resists the effect of acoustic resonance on my LP12 in my listening room. As you know Thorens and others have tried to minimise the effect of resonance on the suspension springs. Grommet durometer, spring material and wire thickness/wind etc., coatings, foam inserts etc. My Eureka moment was to get rid of the blasted things!

  8. #28
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    that's sounds good, John. However, I don't know how well they will go down (or not go down and up) with the Linnites, but who cares. People who recognise the benefits will buy, for sure! Well done, again.

    Will the same kind of thing work for motor suspension?
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  9. #29
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    Thanks Bryan!

    They are not aimed at devoted Linnies Bryan, they would never move from the Linn mantra. even if they heard music reproduced via a superior TT (they would be adamant the superior deck was wrong not the LP12).

    All of my products are aimed at music enthusiasts who have more sense than money

    The material I use for the bobbins may be adapted for motor suspension as it is quite resilient, but I use a small piece of Plattamat 2 as a gasket between motor and top plate on the LP12 it works or me as I hear far less motor noise break through with that method that the Linn cones. Ah but some will say Linn moved away from the gasket method years ago. "I know I say, but they didn't use Plattamat 2 material did they? Because it wasn't available to them" !

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by John R View Post
    Thanks Bryan!

    They are not aimed at devoted Linnies Bryan, they would never move from the Linn mantra. even if they heard music reproduced via a superior TT (they would be adamant the superior deck was wrong not the LP12).

    All of my products are aimed at music enthusiasts who have more sense than money

    The material I use for the bobbins may be adapted for motor suspension as it is quite resilient, but I use a small piece of Plattamat 2 as a gasket between motor and top plate on the LP12 it works or me as I hear far less motor noise break through with that method that the Linn cones. Ah but some will say Linn moved away from the gasket method years ago. "I know I say, but they didn't use Plattamat 2 material did they? Because it wasn't available to them" !
    Linn used a form of cork for their gasket between motor and top plate,and according to sir Ivor this was chosen so as to let the motor noise/vibration go into the plinth system rather than along the belt and into the platter,he said they used the plinth as some kind of sink to dissipate the energy and the belt/suspension isolated the platter etc from it!

  11. #31
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    Indeed Steve.

    There's not much credibility left with what Linn (Ivor T) said in the past is there?

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by John R View Post
    Indeed Steve.

    There's not much credibility left with what Linn (Ivor T) said in the past is there?
    I didn't believe most of stuff he said at the time,he even called me an hi-fi cynic because I told him so,I have always regarded him as a salesman,not a designer or engineer

  13. #33
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    still some bad feelings, I fear! Sorry to bring it up again.

    The thing about motor noise is that it persists, meaning, one can guide it, but most often, it is not dealt with very quickly (good damping). The ideal is to deal with it at source, which would mean a different motor! the alternative is to damp it, either directly, or indirectly. Coupling it to a plinth is fine, unless the plinth is made of a material that doesn't damp effective, like most Linn plinths, and most plinths in general. Most hardwoods (most wood) does not damp well, those that do include iron bark and iron woods, like ipe. Man-made composites, like Panzerholz and Permali are very effective, and very expensive. Other composites, which are very often used, are not good at damping, such as Baltic ply

    I seem to have wandered off topic. Sorry for that.

    John (and J7) I hope you have to work your socks off over Christmas and into the new year. My partner and I sell at craft fairs and to galleries, and have found Brexit has had little impact (actually for the better) on sales, so there is no excuse. May I take this oppo to wish you both (and all others on here) a happy Crimble and hard working new year!
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    still some bad feelings, I fear! Sorry to bring it up again.

    The thing about motor noise is that it persists, meaning, one can guide it, but most often, it is not dealt with very quickly (good damping). The ideal is to deal with it at source, which would mean a different motor! the alternative is to damp it, either directly, or indirectly. Coupling it to a plinth is fine, unless the plinth is made of a material that doesn't damp effective, like most Linn plinths, and most plinths in general. Most hardwoods (most wood) does not damp well, those that do include iron bark and iron woods, like ipe. Man-made composites, like Panzerholz and Permali are very effective, and very expensive. Other composites, which are very often used, are not good at damping, such as Baltic ply

    I seem to have wandered off topic. Sorry for that.

    John (and J7) I hope you have to work your socks off over Christmas and into the new year. My partner and I sell at craft fairs and to galleries, and have found Brexit has had little impact (actually for the better) on sales, so there is no excuse. May I take this oppo to wish you both (and all others on here) a happy Crimble and hard working new year!
    One thing nobody can aim at linn with the LP12 is it being noisy,it isn't, so the way they deal with the motor noise is effective,possibly accidently so but still effective in its execution,the replacement of the original gasket was,according to linn,not only to allow the tilt of the motor to be adjusted easier/better with less strain on the motor "wings" but to also couple the motor more directly to the top plate/plinth to allow better dissipation of the slight vibrations the motor produces,they also said EVERY motor will produce noise/vibration:-they may have changed their tune with the introduction of the very expensive radikal upgrade

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve195527 View Post
    One thing nobody can aim at Linn with the LP12 is it being noisy, it isn't, so the way they deal with the motor noise is effective, possibly accidentally so but still effective in its execution, the replacement of the original gasket was, according to Linn, Not only to allow the tilt of the motor to be adjusted easier/better with less strain on the motor "wings" but to also couple the motor more directly to the top plate/plinth to allow better dissipation of the slight vibrations the motor produces; they also said EVERY motor will produce noise/vibration: they may have changed their tune with the introduction of the very expensive radikal upgrade
    How do you know it is very quiet? If you can't hear anything through your system, it doesn't mean that there are no vibrations being produced by the motor, or that those very vibrations are NOT causing problems. One should expect a motor to produce some vibrations, and take remedial action, accordingly. Coupling a 'noisy' motor to an under-damped top plate and plinth is not the way. Damping is the answer, something Linn don't seem to know anything about.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    How do you know it is very quiet? If you can't hear anything through your system, it doesn't mean that there are no vibrations being produced by the motor, or that those very vibrations are NOT causing problems. One should expect a motor to produce some vibrations, and take remedial action, accordingly. Coupling a 'noisy' motor to an under-damped top plate and plinth is not the way. Damping is the answer, something Linn don't seem to know anything about.
    By noise I mean SNR by measurements published which is really all the matters isn't it?keeping the signal clean and all that?they claimed that rumble etc was below meaningful measurement, maybe they do know something after all,not as much as they claim but not as little as you seem to think,damping along with mass can introduce problems of their own can't they?!

  17. #37
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    rumble is a very 'iffy' thing, it's not only low frequencies that will be produced, and rumble is particularly innocuous, as most 'speakers can't reproduce it. Even when it is electronically isolated, and audibly reproduced, one is aware of something, but exactly what is extremely difficult to define.

    Don't follow what you mean by damping and mass. Can you enlighten? [Not being argumentative for the sake of it, just putting forward what I have learnt and found over the years}

    I am very aware that we have shanghaied John's thread, if the moderator/s want, I would feel better if this discussion was moved somewhere else. Sorry John R.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  18. #38

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    being able to reproduce it via speakers isn't necessary I was talking measurements, objective rather than subjective effects ,"below meaningful measurement" was what Linn used to claim
    by mass and damping I was meaning the way some methods are used to "control" vibrations,mass can be used but that usually just moves the frequencies that gets excited damping is not uniform in the way it works,you can damp some frequencies but others will be relatively unaffected by the damping applies and some materials used as damping/vibration absorbance change with time, especially ones using rubber,even sorbothane stiffens/hardens with age
    Last edited by steve195527; 5th December 2016 at 21:36.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    rumble is a very 'iffy' thing, it's not only low frequencies that will be produced, and rumble is particularly innocuous, as most 'speakers can't reproduce it. Even when it is electronically isolated, and audibly reproduced, one is aware of something, but exactly what is extremely difficult to define.

    Don't follow what you mean by damping and mass. Can you enlighten? [Not being argumentative for the sake of it, just putting forward what I have learnt and found over the years}

    I am very aware that we have shanghaied John's thread, if the moderator/s want, I would feel better if this discussion was moved somewhere else. Sorry John R.
    No problem with me Bryan - feel free to discuss.

    I use a small aluminium device that allows me to rest the stylus on the top plate. I can then run the output through Audacity. I have the files here somewhere on another computer where it shows very positive results on noise performance with the plattamat2 gasket interface.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by John R View Post
    No problem with me Bryan - feel free to discuss.

    I use a small aluminium device that allows me to rest the stylus on the top plate. I can then run the output through Audacity. I have the files here somewhere on another computer where it shows very positive results on noise performance with the plattamat2 gasket interface.
    Hi John
    How does the noise measurement of the system you describe compare to standard Linn motor mounts but but with the stylus in contact with the arm board using your device(if that is possible), that way just using the Linn suspension to isolate motor noise etc?

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