+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 52

Thread: Baseboard in machined alu for TA Stiletto...WoW

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Baseboard in machined alu for TA Stiletto...WoW

    Tangerine Audio is about to launch their Skorpion base plate in a couple of days. It is machined from a solid billet of aluminium and has many features in common with their Karmen top plate and Plateau sub chassis. It has principally been designed with their flagship Stiletto in mind and it includes machined feets to.

    And the LFC is as usually not happy with an 3rd party nice piece of work

    But of course its on my must have list.



    /L
    Last edited by SME V; 20th March 2017 at 19:37. Reason: my bad english, but still better than your swedish :)
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax.
    https://www.linnarts.se

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The padded cell.
    Posts
    1,607
    Rep Power
    3389531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SME V View Post
    Reason: my bad english, but still better than your swedish /L
    Never a truer word!!! LOL.....
    You can only be young once, but you can be immature for ever.....

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SME V View Post
    Tangerine Audio is about to launch their Skorpion base plate in a couple of days. It is machined from a solid billet of aluminium and has many features in common with their Karmen top plate and Plateau sub chassis. It has principally been designed with their flagship Stiletto in mind and it includes machined feets to.

    And the LFC is as usually not happy with an 3rd party nice piece of work

    But of course its on my must have list.



    /L
    I am beginning to think that nowadays some companies are making "upgrades" for the linn just because they know folk will buy them for the reason you want this product,I can't see why is Tangerine or any other company who clain to know how to improve almost every part of the lp12(or any TT for that matter) they don't simply engineer their own complete TT from scratch using all the knowledge they have gained making the upgrades,maybe that is their ultimate plan,but only after they have got as much money as possible by making upgrades to almost every part and really can't offer more things to change,seems almost as cynical as linn themselves in some ways

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    one reason for making and selling after market products is, as remembered by Sir Isaac Newton: 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. All the marketing and selling has been done, all that is necessary is to get your name known (and associated with the 'giants').

    I question if aluminium is the best material in this case, my base plates (for Lenco's) have been either resinated bamboo or seven layer laminates. Needs to be really damping, especially if the turntable/plinth is not.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    one reason for making and selling after market products is, as remembered by Sir Isaac Newton: 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. All the marketing and selling has been done, all that is necessary is to get your name known (and associated with the 'giants').

    I question if aluminium is the best material in this case, my base plates (for Lenco's) have been either resinated bamboo or seven layer laminates. Needs to be really damping, especially if the turntable/plinth is not.
    current linns may be engineered(voiced?)to suit an ally base plate:-think the one they make/sell for it is ally as well

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    I think 'voiced' is right! Steve.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    11,002
    Rep Power
    1792657

    Default

    Tin Machine might even sound half decent (but highly unlikely).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    one reason for making and selling after market products is, as remembered by Sir Isaac Newton: 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. All the marketing and selling has been done, all that is necessary is to get your name known (and associated with the 'giants').

    I question if aluminium is the best material in this case, my base plates (for Lenco's) have been either resinated bamboo or seven layer laminates. Needs to be really damping, especially if the turntable/plinth is not.
    One reason for making and selling aftermarket products IS to do the " thing " better than the original, not only for the money.
    In this case the mashined aluminium baseboard is made to be ONE piece with the plinth and get the damping in the feets, itīs mounted to the plinth with 10 pieces of hexagon M 3x12.
    Mark had in this case do what he loves and belives, that the machined alu baseboard made the TT sounds better. And in his opinion it is. Mine comes later

    This is to rise the performance of the TA Stiletto, not the originally fruitbox...

    /L
    Last edited by SME V; 22nd March 2017 at 21:08.
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax.
    https://www.linnarts.se

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    I was doing some measurements today, looking at vibrations in materials (as I do) and decided to look at some aluminium I'm going to use for super tweeter 'boxes'. The test piece was anodised on one side, and had a scratch-resistant plastic layer on the other. Even so, once in resonance, it vibrated for some time. The numbers on the top axis are whole seconds.



    I don't think even a pair of size 12 feet would damp that bit of aluminium, let alone a plinth bottom.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Thank you for a nice advice

    /L
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax.
    https://www.linnarts.se

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    I was doing some measurements today, looking at vibrations in materials (as I do) and decided to look at some aluminium I'm going to use for super tweeter 'boxes'. The test piece was anodised on one side, and had a scratch-resistant plastic layer on the other. Even so, once in resonance, it vibrated for some time. The numbers on the top axis are whole seconds.



    I don't think even a pair of size 12 feet would damp that bit of aluminium, let alone a plinth bottom.
    certain exotic car manufacturers use and damp aluminium pretty effectively by having it stressed or using ribs and bitumen type panels, so it is possible to use it and have it non-resonant

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    This aluminum piece is not taken from the basement directly as you might imagine it is machined and made of 12 mm aluminum and it's stressed and ribbed to take away the vibrations and is also that I wrote that it is made so that it becomes one piece with the plinth so vibrations continues down into the feets if there is any ! and taken up by rubbers in those who are also made of aluminum.
    I do not intend to use this feets, I will use spikes so that any vibrations go down into the substrate under the turntable, which means that my furniture will take up any vibrations that becomes. But of course il will test both of them.

    The old bases was only there for protection that you dont get a chock from electrics in the turntable and was not an intension to give the turntable any performance at all, il do had some Linns and tested without the base board and in these days it was more like a drum skin and that was the case.
    Now itīs made for the TT and itīs made so this is a part of the whole performance so why let it alone.

    /L
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax.
    https://www.linnarts.se

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    remedial action can (and has to be) taken to attempt to diminish the real possibility of vibrations in panels of aluminium, and steel and carbon fibre RP, glass fibre RP, and titanium. The effectiveness will, no doubt, depend on individual applications, but in all of them, I would suggest, there is always vibrations.

    SME V brings up an almost universal misconception, that vibrations somehow find their way through structures like water through the topology of the countryside. They do not. Vibrations cannot be led away to their death somewhere else, like sheep. A panel, like a plinth base, will vibrate, regardless of any action taken to stop it. All we can do, at best, is reduce the vibrations to a level where they are no longer a problem, or let them colour the final sound.

    A panel vibrates up and down (and from side to side). The whole panel vibrates, with some areas vibrating more than others, depending on the modes of vibration. If you put spikes under a panel, some of those vibrations will be transferred to the support, and depending on the support material and frequencies involved, some vibrational amplitudes will be amplified to quite high levels, depending on the transmissibility of the materials involved. And don't forget that spikes are two way, whatever the turntable is placed on will transmit vibrations to the turntable.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    11,002
    Rep Power
    1792657

    Default

    What's wrong with thick ply or mdf, which has been sealed so it lasts a long time? It sounds warmer doesn't it.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    They 'sound' warmer (?) because they also vibrate quite a bit. Ply and mdf are used in hifi structures because they are cheap and easier to machine than alternatives. They also have very poor intrinsic damping. Even the BBC, who specified ply in their loudspeaker construction went for thin walls, to be damped by bitumen panels, because the thicker ply could not be damped enough!
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Do I let it colour the final sound or i donīt, itīs a decision i have to make at a high cost or zero cost.



    The whole world vibrates, nothing i can do about that so i donīt put my time on that and Mark on TA says it will perform better than the Tramp 2 then I belive it does.

    I do have an Super Oak TT in my life all in Mdf even the platter, it burnt good in the fire place and warm me up a couple of seconds

    /L
    Tangerine Audio Stiletto, Plateau, Skorpion, SME V ( D ), Dynavector DRT XV 1S, Chord Signature Tuned Aray, Linn Cirkus, Linn Radikal Klimax.
    https://www.linnarts.se

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    well, there is something you can do about it.

    But if Mark says it will perform, then it must be true, and I've been wasting my time, money and understanding for the last ten years.

    Here's another scan of an aluminium structure, it's an aluminium pultrusion, 150mm cube. It has significant vibrations, and signs of ringing (the wavelike modulation). I am going to use it for tweeter boxes, but I will need to damp the structure significantly before using it.



    Here is the FFT of the above, giving some idea of the frequencies involved.

    Last edited by cat's squirrel; 23rd March 2017 at 14:56.
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    remedial action can (and has to be) taken to attempt to diminish the real possibility of vibrations in panels of aluminium, and steel and carbon fibre RP, glass fibre RP, and titanium. The effectiveness will, no doubt, depend on individual applications, but in all of them, I would suggest, there is always vibrations.

    SME V brings up an almost universal misconception, that vibrations somehow find their way through structures like water through the topology of the countryside. They do not. Vibrations cannot be led away to their death somewhere else, like sheep. A panel, like a plinth base, will vibrate, regardless of any action taken to stop it. All we can do, at best, is reduce the vibrations to a level where they are no longer a problem, or let them colour the final sound.

    A panel vibrates up and down (and from side to side). The whole panel vibrates, with some areas vibrating more than others, depending on the modes of vibration. If you put spikes under a panel, some of those vibrations will be transferred to the support, and depending on the support material and frequencies involved, some vibrational amplitudes will be amplified to quite high levels, depending on the transmissibility of the materials involved. And don't forget that spikes are two way, whatever the turntable is placed on will transmit vibrations to the turntable.
    some of what you say is misleading in the least,adding mass to any structure will not only alter the frequency it vibrates(resonates) at but also alter the amplitude, so in essence the vibrations are in fact being led to a sort of ground,with enough mass they would be immeasurable(I know that is not feasible in reality)
    Then with suspended designs adding mass can cause issues by moving resonances below the resonant frequency of the suspension,which most have difficulty dealing with,hence linn wanting the LP12 place on a light coffee table type support to keep the resonances in the support in the frequency band it can best cope with
    What we all tend to forget at time is that any hifi system is a compromise(and I do mean any and all)what we have to aim for is a compromise that we ourselves can live with and afford

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    glorious Devon
    Posts
    1,089
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    3428816

    Default

    No confusion here. As you state, for the same input force, the higher the mass, the lower the acceleration (amplitude of the vibrations) but the energy remains the same. As the mass is likely to have very little damping, amplitudes will build quite quickly, and the mass effect will be negated.

    There is an idea that mass, stiffness and damping (the three important parameters we are talking about) can be represented by electrical analogues, damping by resistance, compliance (1/stiffness) by capacitance and mass by inductance. It is possible to build electrical circuits which represent the mass, stiffness and damping of a system. But, earth, although present in the analogue (electrical) circuits, has no mechanical equivalent. Therefore, is a mechanical earth even possible? It is not a mass, as that is an inductance!
    cheers.....Bryan

    http://qualia.webs.com/

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's squirrel View Post
    No confusion here. As you state, for the same input force, the higher the mass, the lower the acceleration (amplitude of the vibrations) but the energy remains the same. As the mass is likely to have very little damping, amplitudes will build quite quickly, and the mass effect will be negated.

    There is an idea that mass, stiffness and damping (the three important parameters we are talking about) can be represented by electrical analogues, damping by resistance, compliance (1/stiffness) by capacitance and mass by inductance. It is possible to build electrical circuits which represent the mass, stiffness and damping of a system. But, earth, although present in the analogue (electrical) circuits, has no mechanical equivalent. Therefore, is a mechanical earth even possible? It is not a mass, as that is an inductance!
    how are you relating mass to inductance?if what you are saying is correct most engines should shake themselves to pieces as the enegy passed on mechanically has nowhere to go(noise and heat gets rid of a lot I know)and remains in the system, eventually building in amplitude to a destructive level

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts